#awinewith Ludwina Dautovic
MEET Ludwina
Ludwina is the Founder of The Room Xchange.
Find Ludwina here:
The Room Xchange website or Instagram @theroomxchange.
Transcript
Danielle Lewis (00:10):
Oh, so good. Edwina, thank you so much for being here on Spark tv.
Ludwina Dautovic (00:16):
Oh, it's my pleasure. I feel like I've had Danielle Spark for most of my dayday already.
Danielle Lewis (00:24):
I know. And I'm so glad. I'm so glad. I always love our chats, so that's perfect. Awesome. Well, let's just kick off by telling everybody how you got here. So you are the fabulous founder of the Room Exchange. I'd love for you to share with the smart community, firstly, what the heck that is and what your mission is. But also just a quick backstory in terms of how you got here. Was there a career, other businesses? Where did we come from?
Ludwina Dautovic (00:55):
Okay, so I'm 56. That's a big question, so I'll try and condense it as much as I can. I founded the Rim Exchange five years ago, and I'm currently also the CEO. Now, the Room Exchange is Australia's first verified house sharing platform. And what that means is, is that we have mandatory verification as opposed to it being a nice to have, we have it as mandatory and we've integrated Australia Post digital ID within our technology through an API, which means that when we come to verification, there's just a button that gets clicked. Australia Post opens up along with the room exchange, and people can get verified with whatever ID they choose to use. So first and foremost, all of our households and housemates are on the same playing field in that they both have to be verified, and it just creates this straight up that you are part of a safe community.
(01:48):
And the second thing is that compatibility is really important because we want all of our households to feel like they're coming home to a friend. So our profiles help you to be matched based on personality, values and lifestyle. So once you have a look at our profiles, you'll be going, oh yeah, I reckon I'd be really good friends with her or him. And that makes it really helpful as well. And then the third thing is that you can choose a traditional rental model or you can choose what we call rent offset. So right now, for example, I'm looking for a woman in her fifties who'd like to, we have a second master suite in our house, and it has an en suite walk-in robe, fully furnished 250 a week. But if you're happy to sell some things for me on Facebook Marketplace for two hours a week, I'll knock off $50 of the rent.
(02:35):
So that's called a rent offset. So it could be as long as it's, and so for example, if I've got a plumber coming to do my pipes, my housemate might be able to dig the holes but not actually do the plumbing, if that makes sense. So it's kind of not anything that requires a license or anything like that. It could be cooking, cleaning, looking after the kids, walking the dog house, sitting a whole bunch of different things that are domestic in nature or just basic skills that you might have that you're willing to trade or offset part of the rent. So you can offset all the rent or part of it. It's completely up to the household or the housemate. But essentially what that means is that we look at the spare bedroom as an asset. So there's 13.5 million unused spare bedrooms in 10 million homes across Australia.
(03:26):
Oh my God, that's huge. Yeah, I know, I know. And so when you look at it, if we're looking from a business perspective, that's wasted, underutilized space that you have in your home that you are paying, whether you are renting or whether you have a mortgage, you're paying for that space. So what we've done is that we've created the technology and the platform to give the homeowner or the household comfort knowing that if they were to rent that or utilize that space, that can one, choose the best way for them. So whether that's rent, it could be worth 10 or 12,000 a year in rent, or whether it's household help, which could be up to 300 hours a year of household help, then you can use that asset the best way for your household. And then for the housemates, for the first time ever, I've been in the property market now 30 years, and the first time ever we're actually experiencing a rental crisis.
(04:13):
And what that means is that in most places across Australia, there's less than 1% rental vacancies. And in some regions, it's actually a zero, particularly in the tourist regional areas are really struggling at the moment with trying to get even just hospitality workers there. They can't house them. So we have a massive rental crisis, but we have all of this existing housing stock in homes across Australia. So we are looking at, we want the households to feel safe and secure, but we also want them to see that this is a lifestyle choice and can add a lot of value to their home. And then also for housemates, where they might traditionally go for a kind of flatmate arrangement, this is more about become part of a household and maybe a local community, a family or whoever it is in that home. We have a lot of elderly people who are living by themselves.
(05:02):
We have women over 50 who want to house share with other women their own age, professional couples, professional singles. There's a whole bunch of range of people. And then we have a whole bunch of people who are saying, well, look, there are different ways that we can rent. It doesn't have to be the one traditional way. It's always been, and there's also a new kind of renter out there now too that we recognize. And it's not just generally the young person who's leaving home for the first time or going to university or maybe backpacking around the country. There are people who are choosing to rent as a lifestyle option. So myself, for example, my husband and I own a rental property in Newport Landlords, and we're tenants and we're house sharers. So yeah, we want to live a little bit further out in a bigger place. So we rent and then we rent the house where we live. So I've got a pretty good perspective from across all the different angles of what home means now to people, and we are really at the right time for it. It's funny, I started the company five years ago, but it's kind of like I started it five years ago for this year. Yeah,
Danielle Lewis (06:09):
I can relate to that. Yes.
Ludwina Dautovic (06:11):
Yeah, and we were just hitting, felt like we had just figured everything out. When Covid hit raised capital for the company, we'd built the tech, had the problems with the tech as you do, and then started to sort all that out. And then Covid, like who's opening up their doors for two years in Covid, we from Melbourne, and that's national. It's kind of like everybody was incredibly apprehensive for a couple of years there. And so we decided to, we had two choices, either close the company, I don't think anybody would've, I think people would've understood that. But it was just like for me, I've got shareholders and I've invested a lot of my own money and a lot of my time, and I wanted to keep our shareholders shareholding whole. And so we decided to use that time to pivot and add a few additional layers to the model and bring it into a time that would fit the post covid world, which meant a lot of assumptions about where things might be, and had a feeling that the rental market would be an area that would be struggling in. So let's bring more of that rental conversation in with it and it's worked. So that's a story in brief of the room exchange. If you want me to go back, apart from working in, I left school at 15, left home at 16, worked in hospitality for eight years, and then met my husband. So we've been married now, just celebrated 30 years. Oh my God. Had my kids. That's a
Danielle Lewis (07:44):
Mission in and of itself. Good work.
Ludwina Dautovic (07:47):
I know I skim over that, but yeah, sorry. We've just recently celebrated our 30th anniversary and had my kids 25 and 27, so they're now 30 and 28. And at that time, the idea of actually getting a job job never crossed my mind or having a career. I was modeling from the age of 10, and I was very involved in music as a child. I wanted to go to Music Conservatorium because I was playing a lot of classical and orchestras and things like that. It just wasn't on the cards for me. And so then when I left home and I moved to Sydney on my own at 16 with $200 in my pocket, I was like, okay, what's next? I'll keep modeling up there and I'll get a job at McDonald's and I'll work in a bar and I'll do whatever. And hospitality became my thing and taught me a lot about people and sales and being self-sufficient.
(08:43):
I realized I had a lot of chutzpah and kind of developed a lot of those skills in that environment. So when it came to having my children and the decision you have to that when I first became a mother, it was kind of like, oh, should women work? Was a conversation at the time, should women be working outside of the home? And I never imagined not working, but what kind of work could I do? And so I just started doing things I could do at home with the kids and started out with booking people into focus groups to party plan. Ended up getting number one in, I was 17 in sales in my first year with this particular company doing selling educational games and toys, and then kind of continued that path a bit. And then we made this crazy decision to homeschool our kids. So I was working for myself and homeschooling my kids as well back before people knew what homeschooling was, and this is all I know, it's all pre-internet. And then I decided I wanted to make a TV show when I was about 29. And that was a kind of, I know what
Danielle Lewis (09:56):
Stupid, this is incredible. I love it.
Ludwina Dautovic (10:00):
Well, it's kind of like I get asked, I talk about it's nothing, but I knew nothing about filming or editing or being in front of the camera in that way, but I just thought I wanted to make a panel type program talking to 18 or 25 year olds about social issues. Cool. So picture 25 years ago, we were talking about gender, sexuality, relationships, religion, all of these mental health,
Danielle Lewis (10:27):
Taboo, taboo subjects. Taboo,
Ludwina Dautovic (10:28):
Massive, massively taboo. But then there was at the time, and you probably might be a bit too young to remember this, but Cable Opters launched their first cable network and they had a community channel arm to it. And then we created a teaser of the show called Straight Talk, and they saw the professionalism of the actual, the cut that we did. They said, yeah, we'll take it. You can shoot it here, we'll give you an outside broadcast van. You can have cameras to go do Vbox on
Danielle Lewis (11:01):
The street. Oh my God, my God.
Ludwina Dautovic (11:03):
And that started my TV career and I knew absolutely nothing, but I knew how to gather the right people around me that knew what they were doing. And I had enough of a level of self-confidence to be able to get in front of the camera and also not be that particular about, I've never been a perfectionist. Just get up there and do it and figure it out as you go along, as our mate, Chris Adams says, just say you to figure it out later.
Danielle Lewis (11:35):
Exactly. That's my life motto.
Ludwina Dautovic (11:38):
He's taught me a lot about that one be
Danielle Lewis (11:40):
Kind of, well,
Ludwina Dautovic (11:42):
I've actually bought the URL and it's going to be a book one day, but oh,
Danielle Lewis (11:45):
I love that. I'll be your best customer. That's so good.
Ludwina Dautovic (11:52):
And so I did that, and then we did a whole season, the show got broadcast nationally on Optus Vision, and then they loved what I was doing. They said, look, can you produce something else? And so I came up with this show concept called tv.com, should have bought the URL. But I pictured that back then. I kind of see myself was a bit of a futurist in terms of the ideas that I was developing. And we were demystifying all aspects of technology. And if you can imagine what a computer looked like back then. Oh yeah. And we had these young Dave, a
Danielle Lewis (12:23):
Big thick monitors
Ludwina Dautovic (12:26):
I love, we were demystifying technology, and I had this guy called Troy Waller, who's still today I am friends with, and he was presenting it, and it was a five camera 30 minute live to wear. So I was directing. So I went from our first show to presenting to then directing this live shoot. And then they said, look, we really love what you're doing. Do you want to see if you can get Optus out in schools? And so I worked with a teacher and a videographer, and we managed to come up with this program called Media Minds, which was a two day hands-on video production workshop that we ran in over, ended up running in over 300 schools in Adelaide, Brisbane, and Melbourne. My gosh, over a period of five years, we were, the school paid us quite a lot of money to go into each school. We knocked off a lot of their curriculum standard and framework for media. I was then 15-year-old high school dropout. I was then hired by the Victorian Education Department to run workshops to teachers of media.
Danielle Lewis (13:23):
Oh my gosh, that is so cool.
Ludwina Dautovic (13:27):
So all this was going on. I was homeschooling my kids at the same time, and they were getting involved in all the production work that we were doing. And my son is a massive film lover now, and my daughter's, and it's just kind of always had this, what do I want to do next kind of thing. And then digital came in. And so that made that program obsolete. So then I was one of the first life coaches to come out of that, the first branch of life coaching. So I did NLP and life coaching, and then I started working with women helping. I was really passionate about, I'd done a lot of self-work in my thirties as well to work through some of my childhood stuff and some of the coaching helped me work through that as well. And so then I used to run these three day life innovation weekends for women.
(14:12):
And then I hired a coach and he said, look, you're really great at gathering people together. You're awesome at marketing. Why don't you do a networking event? And did some business coaching. And I thought, well, yeah, why not? So I said, yes, and I got this little Indian restaurant in Williamstown. We had 12 women at the table. And then I just talked for a bit, and then a couple of them wanted to do some coaching with me. And next thing you know, we were running Australia's third largest women's events company. We had events running in four states. I was going to Sydney once a month and Brisbane and running two events in Melbourne. I was making, I dunno, 20 a month in consulting clients out of it and then launched in Perth. And the day we were launching in Perth, I was diagnosed with kidney cancer. So that was next stage.
Danielle Lewis (15:02):
Oh my God, I love that you're podcast
Ludwina Dautovic (15:07):
Learning. Talk to me about tech
Danielle Lewis (15:09):
Know. But it's so interesting because I'm now learning so much about we talk all the bloody time and I don't know any things about you. We're always talking about sales and business. That's incredible. Okay, keep going. I'm not going to interrupt you.
Ludwina Dautovic (15:22):
Yeah, yeah. So anyway, like me, I never do things by halves, and the size of the tumor was pretty much the size of my hands.
Danielle Lewis (15:30):
Oh my
Ludwina Dautovic (15:30):
God. Centimeters. But I'm 12 years cancer clear, and I really don't need to go a whole lot into that. But I had the kidney removed with the tumor, and I had to sort of rest for a year. And then it was like, ERs, what do I do? So then I decided, I asked myself, this is a thing that I also love, is the quality of your life is determined by the quality of questions you ask yourself. If you ask yourself shit questions, you can only get shit answers, right? Yes. So I thought, well, what can I do to keep my business brand alive that doesn't require me to look good, feel good, or go anywhere? Because I couldn't, I'd had a seven hour surgery before surgeons, and I was at the lawyers that morning just in case I didn't survive it, updating my wrote letters to my kids and my friends.
(16:17):
It was a pretty serious time. So I thought, well, I did media before without podcasting, then I can still talk. I can be in bed and I can talk. Can't be that hard to figure out. So in 2010, I became one of the first B2B podcasters in Australia and ended up hitting number one on iTunes, probably, I dunno, three, four times or something. I've got screen grabs of them and knew a noteworthy. And then half a dozen people started asking me, oh, this thing about me, if I hear something three times or more, I get antennas grow out of my head. I was like, oh my God, how do you do this podcast and can you teach me? So then I started the podcast masterclass and then did a six week webinar program and then turned that into an evergreen program online, and then did a podcast called the Podcast Masterclass with a mate of mine, Heather Porter, who was also one of the early podcasters in Australia.
(17:13):
And then just, yeah, the second year after the second surgery, I had to spend some time recovering again. So I thought, well, same question. What can I do? And I was still podcasting, but I was like, well, I'll write a book. So then I planned this book out called It's That Easy Online Marketing Point Oh, and I thought I'd get about 18 contributing authors. It was back at the time when the whole contributing author book concept was just becoming big, and one of the contributors that answered a call out on source bottle, I got to give a big call out to Beck Darrington for creating Source Bottle. It's an amazing resource. She is
Danielle Lewis (17:49):
Awesome. Yeah.
Ludwina Dautovic (17:50):
Yeah. So this guy called Chris Holmes, he said, oh, I could write something about social media. I worked a Facebook blah blah. I don't think, yeah, you're bloody liar. Yeah,
Danielle Lewis (18:03):
That's so funny.
Ludwina Dautovic (18:06):
It was so funny this day Best as friends, and he's just saved my mind in so many ways at that time, I can't tell you, but he ended up writing the opening chapter called A Good Story Well Told because he actually has a PhD in poetry and he's an incredible writer. And he framed the book up beautifully for me about talking about storytelling. And then I had a whole bunch of other authors that paid to come into the book and talk about various different aspects, still got copies of it lying around somewhere. And then the third year I had another surgery. And so the day that I was having my third surgery, the book was being released in print and digital worldwide. So that all tells you something about how much I love tech and how tech can be just such a great resource regardless of what's going on around you.
(18:58):
I was able to still rest, but keep my mind active. And it was a huge learning time for me as well. I really learned a lot about Deb. Chris introduced me to a lot of people in his circle. He just said, Hey, she's an Oprah of podcasting. Just say yes to her. And they'd go, okay. So I got to interview all these amazing people that he introduced me to as well, which broadened my reach. And then I just started to advise and consult on a higher level and became part of an investment pool with my husband who's on the board of a company and a bunch of other people. We rated $9 million for that particular invention. And then there was another company that Chris was involved in the Times Bondo, a bunch of people in my living room and helped raise some capital for that.
(19:48):
And then sort of went down that route and wanted to learn and understand that better. And that was kind of just proceeding the REM exchange. And so when I came up with the idea for the room exchange, it just came as a way of I was living that way. So after my oldest son left home when he was 22, I started utilizing that bedroom so people, friends of my daughter come and stay, they won't stay longer and then didn't have any money. And I just said, look, you help us out a couple of hours a day and we'll feed and house you. And it was just this organic thing that happened over a period of about three years and just loved the variety and the injection that these people were bringing into our home. And then a few of my friends started saying, oh, that's a great idea. Where can we find someone's want to heard that three times the REM exchange was born? Find me in a nutshell,
Danielle Lewis (20:34):
But that's so good. We need to put a pin in that. So we often talk about listening to our customers and making sure that we create features or products or services based on what they actually want than just coming up with an idea and going, that's brilliant, I'm going to launch it. And then you launch to crickets. So I love the way you frame it, which is if I hear the same idea three times, then I know the antenna go up and I know that I'm onto something.
Ludwina Dautovic (21:03):
But look, I don't always paid attention to it. There was a time just before Covid, and it was very strongly recommended to me by a few people who I admire and respect that originally when the room exchange was launched, it was launched just purely on what we used to call an exchange model. So there wasn't any money involved. It was help out two hours a day in exchange for food and accommodation. That's how we were living. Now every business has to start somewhere, and if you wait until you think you've got the model perfected, you'll never get anything started. But a big thing that I learned at that time is that I became so stubborn about the birthing concept of the business that when it came to, oh, I need to pivot and change this, it was like, no, no, you don't understand. This is what it was supposed to be.
(21:56):
And I remember that that'll be a chapter in my book as well because it was, I say this to a lot of people who I talk to and advise now, it's just like you have to, as you just said, the customer will help to define what the service or the product should be. But in the early stages of things, particularly I like it to having a child, it's like you invest so much and you think that this kid's going to be this, and all of a sudden they show you who they are, and then it's like you've got to let go. Not all of it, because they still need a framework, but you've got to let go of the core values or the core, not the core values, just I guess the essence of who you think that they were going to be and let it form themselves and just trust that you've given enough, you've given them enough foundation and guidelines that they would choose the right path.
(22:47):
I think if you look at that in parallel to a business, it's like you've got to see it and let it go and become its own thing. But you've got the technology, you've got the people around you. As long as you've got all the underpinning, then you trust yourself to let it go and let it fall into what it will be. And what's happened as a result of that is I've learned so much more about myself as well. And also it's actually really freed me up to steer me into a direction in the real estate industry that I've always been really passionate about and being able to make a positive impact in that space as opposed to it. Because before it didn't really feel like it was about the real estate industry when now it actually is. Yeah, so
Danielle Lewis (23:30):
Absolutely. There's a lot of, and it's really interesting, I love the way you talk, I don't think we've mentioned it, but the demographic as well of women in Australia, I think you said a stat to me the other day that the over fifties women in Australia are highest demographic homeless. So you are actually creating a huge impact in the world by offering a service like this that can actually help out people that bloody need it.
Ludwina Dautovic (23:57):
And I'll just add a bit of clarification around that. I think it's really important too for people to understand what we are and what we're not. So we are a for-profit house sharing platform. We're not a social welfare, so we're not equipped to deal with people who are in difficult situations. But having said that, sometimes it can happen to us. It's like people in the middle age sector now, sorry, not middle age, middle income, they're generally like six to eight weeks away from losing everything. If they lost their job, that's how long they'd probably be able to pay their mortgage for. So if they didn't have a temporary option before they could actually fill up their bank account again, then they could fall down that rabbit hole. So if you look at us in that way, it's kind of like we've got these households who are opening up their homes, they're not doing it to help people out. They're doing it to
Danielle Lewis (24:59):
Benefit
Ludwina Dautovic (25:00):
Themselves and to add value to their home and to add additional layers, whether it's financial support or household support. And at the same time, that person equally comes into their home and supports them in that way. But then the household also supports the person by providing the housing. So that's who we are. But I do believe that being able to have affordable and accessible housing there that doesn't need to be built can help prevent a whole lot of problems for people down the road. So going back to the women over 50, I'm 56 women in my age group are the fastest growing demographic for homelessness in Australia. And the reason isn't because they're making poor choices or a drug or alcohol. It's not this subconscious thing that people have in their head. It's because of divorce. So now, thankfully, it'll be the last generation, quite likely where it will happen. Maybe one more. I think they're saying 45 and up now, but when you think about women, my daughter's age, she's 28, she's thinking about superannuation. When she does partner with someone, someone, she won't be completely dependent on him. So when I was growing up as a young woman, the messages I was receiving were make sure you marry well and make sure that you learn how to type in case you need a job,
(26:26):
Right?
Danielle Lewis (26:27):
Yes, yes.
Ludwina Dautovic (26:29):
Not make sure you've got a superannuation account and that you should something happen and your marriage doesn't work out that you're going to be financially okay because it's never talked about that your marriage wouldn't work out.
Danielle Lewis (26:42):
You're spot on. And it's really interesting, I think about my mom and I think about other friends that I have, and it just shocks me when they say things like, oh, I don't know, he looks after all of that. And I go, oh God. And you do. You always think the best. And I think as women, we go into a lot of our relationships thinking the best will happen, but it is not always the case. And if you outsource the financial responsibility to the man, you can set yourself up for a bit of strife.
Ludwina Dautovic (27:14):
And conversely the same, I love finances, so I'm all over it, but there's a lot of men I know that don't, and they just go, oh, she just does a really good job of it. And you've got that trust, great. But then there's still this possibility that something could happen. And I just think it's, I think if people looked more at marriage or life partnership, I call it marriage, married, so it is my language. So they look at that level of commitment. I look at it like a business partnership. It's got to be, there's a financial underpinning. There's the intimacy, there's the mental simulation, there's the children that you have. You're building a big city together. It's a huge city, Harry. And when we were celebrating our 30th, we decided to go away with our adult kids. We planned a full day trip and we'd been planning it for a year.
(28:08):
And she was just beautiful in Dalewood in this big, gorgeous house. And we had a number of different things that we did each day. But on the actual anniversary down the Monday, Harry and I actually wrote words to each other as kind of a form of something new for the next 30 years. Because who we are today is not who we were when we were in our early twenties. And we wanted to say that in front of the kids that this is who we are becoming, and I'll continue to promise not to iron your clothes and not to be obedient. And it's a running joke in our family, are it? Yeah.
(28:41):
But it's like it's still a business partnership. There's this big city that we've built that's at a different stage in its life now that needs different conversations and different things that we need to look at and consider. And I just think that that's one of the things that's happened with this generation of women. But the output of that is that they just need somewhere to save for a while to top up their bank account while the divorce settlement comes through. And often when they do get their divorce settlement, it's not enough for them to be able to buy a house, or maybe it is, but they don't have the income capacity to be able to finance a mortgage so they won't get approved. So there's a number of different really great things that are coming out at the moment for women in that age group like Daisy Ashworth, who's got mortgage mates, so women who can buy houses together or it's a number of different things. And house sharing is a really great way. And I'm right now looking for a woman in her fifties to come and live with me because just at the stage where Harry and I at now our kids have left home, it'd be nice to have that kind of simulating conversation. But I also want a woman who's in that challenging spot because I want to show through our stories that we can share together through this experience that it can be a great thing to support.
Danielle Lewis (30:02):
Yeah, absolutely. Love it. Absolutely love it. So I want to reflect on, because I feel like we could talk for hours, I want to reflect on your, so your story before the room exchange, you never said the words, I was in tech, but you went out and you built a tech platform, which you then sort of had to pivot through really interested in that process. So you are a female founder, potentially no tech experience. You obviously have epic sales, media, marketing, all that kind of good stuff. How did you go about actually building a tech platform?
Ludwina Dautovic (30:44):
So I'll just clarify just a bit of that. I wouldn't say I didn't have any tech experience. I probably just didn't add that in the story before. So when I was running the Women's Network, I also started an online membership program, so that would've been early
Danielle Lewis (30:58):
Days. Of course you did. Of course you did. I love it. So good.
Ludwina Dautovic (31:03):
Yeah, so I remember building my first website bank and it cost me, oh gosh, it would've been about $15,000 ridiculous amount. You could do it on any kind of membership site today for probably 2000 if you hired someone to build it for you. So learned a lot about the cost of tech back then. And then obviously with the podcasting and technology has always been a part of, I loved it. And my son's always been making films, so we were always producing stuff and the media program in schools. So it's kind of the leaning into the tech. And the way that I did was kind of this progression of types of technology
Danielle Lewis (31:44):
Leading, always innovating,
Ludwina Dautovic (31:44):
Moving. Oh, constantly innovating. Yeah. And so when it came, the work I was doing before the room exchange and I was doing a lot of advising with Bondo, it's another company that I'm also an investor in, that was technology. Chris was involved in that as well. And I was learning a lot. So Chris became an advisor of mine 12 years ago, and my COO now, David Opolis was also involved with Bondo at the time and still is. And these are kind of like, I just started to get this injection of information and tech, and I'll get shot by saying this. It's a different type of, how do I say it without being politically incorrect? I hate that. I've got to filter my words. So I was very much involved in running a women's organization. This was the first time I had a male men's thinking and advising coming into, I was say that way.
(32:41):
And I learned a lot in that way. And really while I was recovering from cancer, I was having lots of conversations with them. And then this sort of led, so it kind of led into it. Now, I don't believe you have to be an expert in something to be able to do it. I just believe you need to be able to work your way through enough conversations to know what you need and know who you need to hire to do it. So if we go back to when I decided I wanted to make a TV show, it was really no different, although I really didn't know what I was doing back then. But if you have the vision and you're passionate about what it is that you want and you know what tools you need to achieve that and you know what your own skillset is.
(33:27):
So my skillset's always been brand and marketing and communications, pr, et cetera. I've just been able to do that. Well then it was like, okay, well I knew in my head this would be at least about 150 K bill to kick it off because this isn't just a website with a nice little membership program in the back of it. This is something that's going to end up having algorithms that can spit out information and going to, you needed somebody who really knew what exactly and the verification and all that sort of stuff, which I was pretty certain about in the beginning. And so I ended up getting an agency on board and I knew I was going to need to raise capital to be able to build the tech to kick it off. So I started the company with a being investor ready, which in and of itself is a whole other conversation and a very costly exercise.
(34:19):
I can't believe how much money it actually costs to raise money to raise money. Yes. People don't realize that. No, just it's an oxymoron really. And then it was like I spent a year probably researching digital agencies and really digging deep into it ended up going with one that I now regret just out of respect. I won't quote the name, but Melbourne based one. And what ended up happening, and I wasn't aware until after we left them, but they had been charging us Australian rates and then outsourcing elsewhere, but telling us that it was their team here in Australia. Now I have no issue with outsourcing. And I actually have team who worked for me in Pakistan. I'm half Indian. I love working with Indian people. And so I've got no issue with that, but it's like, don't tell me one thing and then do another and then don't charge me for one thing.
(35:16):
And then you are pocketing a whole lot. And then in the process of that, the person that they put in charge to project manage was nowhere near mature enough or experience enough to, and they later admitted that they put the wrong person in place there. Ended up putting us a year behind, A year behind. It's so frustrating. It would take six months. I gave it a year, they said six months. In my head it was a year. But that meant that the investment money that I'd raised, the story I told the shareholders and it was just like, you have no idea, no idea what level of challenge that puts you under. And it's when it's completely out of your control and you keep getting told one thing and it keeps getting stretched out and stretched out. And this whole tech space, you and I were having this conversation about it the other day and I said, I built a house before my husband and I built a house. And at the time it was, I dunno, maybe 200,000, I think we already owned the lands. It was about 200,000 that built this house. And at every stage of the house it was built. So the foundations and then the engineering foundations, the framing, everything had to happen. An inspect to come along and inspect it and mark it off and say, yes, this has been done correctly. This is correct.
(36:36):
Why the heck do we not have that same kind of regulation around technology in Australia? I'm going to say this. We are going to yell these loud and proud. Danielle, why do we not have that same level? Because you and I are not coders. We can't come underneath the bonnet and go, yeah, that's being coded correctly. And it's not until you leave that and then you get somebody else to look at it. And most of the fear around me actually leaving this agency was learning what I might discover, not the problems we were having, but just the fear of what we might discover.
Danielle Lewis (37:14):
I just couldn't agree with you more. And the idea of having some kind of regulation is bloody genius. Personally, over the 10 years of having scrunch, I have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars. And I'm talking all levels. I've done agency outsourcing, I've done outsourcing, outsourcing. I've had in-house teams, because I'm not a tech founder and I'm not a coder. Actually learning to not have the wall pull over your eyes is a long bloody journey. And you are right. If we had some level of, okay, this is up to standard, then God, that would help a lot of people in their journeys.
Ludwina Dautovic (37:56):
And I would pay, if there was some insurance or something that you could pay on that that would cover that cost, I'd pay it in a heartbeat. I pay too. You think
Danielle Lewis (38:05):
This is another business idea, isn't it?
Ludwina Dautovic (38:07):
Oh, probably. Yeah. And I should probably do this sun insurance company for development products, but it's like, but when an, it's different. If you are taking on, you're outsourcing it and that person's coming in doing chunks and pieces of a development and you've got a project manager or CTO that can oversee that, that's one thing. But when you are going, okay, you say you're going to do this, we've got a contract, we've got an agreement around all this, what you're going to do, this is a timeline that's going to be in place. This is how I'm going to pay for it. And then you just go and BS me the entire way and then just,
Danielle Lewis (38:48):
It's criminal. I mean, I get very passionate about this because I've been in that position far too many times to recount where you do and you're so right, the external pressure of customers, of shareholders, of advertising campaigns that you have in market that you now have to renege on. And you are the person that has to front up to these people because someone's told you something that was a lie. And the problem is this isn't unique to you and I, this has happened to so many founders that I know it really, really rubs me the wrong way. I hate it.
Ludwina Dautovic (39:26):
And the only thing I can think of, it's a way around that, apart from my idea of having regulation around is maybe have a tech co-founder, but then I don't know that I would want that. I know I hear people that have found the companies with a co-founder, but I already have a marriage.
Danielle Lewis (39:54):
I know, I know, I know. And look, and that's a whole nother kettle of fish, isn't it? I've been there. Yeah.
Ludwina Dautovic (40:01):
Well, I dunno, I haven't been there.
Danielle Lewis (40:04):
Oh, it is like a marriage. I tell you,
Ludwina Dautovic (40:06):
I haven't been there.
Danielle Lewis (40:08):
Yeah, again, you've got to plan the divorce before you go into a co-founding. But I mean it's interesting because it is around that, okay, what are our levels of expertise? What are we going to agree on? What if someone wants to leave the business? I think it does come down to that. How do you set expectations upfront before you get 10 years into business and things start to fall apart?
Ludwina Dautovic (40:37):
That's a good question. And it's something that, just bringing it down on sort of like a simplistic layer. We do this with our house sharers on our platform. And so we have this service that we've just released, which is a house sharing agreement service. So it's like let's have the difficult conversations upfront so that when you have issues down the road, and there will be, because people equal issues, we have challenges that come up then. Well, I've already had that conversation back then, already know what the expectation would be around it now. And it could be just as simple as like, oh, I've really enjoyed spending this time living with you, but I want to go and get my own place now. And maybe the housemate might be feeling really guilty. They're going to let them down because they've been, I don't know, looking after their kids after school and now they're going to be put.
(41:25):
But if you've talked about, well, if you talked at the top end and said, well, one of the questions that we ask in that is like, well, when anyone wants to exit this, what are the rules around that? And it's the same with any kind of business relationship. And it is like, well, how much notice do you want? I'd like a month's notice if it's the household and the housemaker. Yeah, I could do that. Alright, great. Write that down in your agreement. And we just sort of, what about rules about having friends over? Are you comfortable with that? Well, how about you just have them over for dinner first and we'll get to know them and then we'll go from there. Okay, that's cool. What about, and you just talk about these things that you think might end up becoming a problem or might be awkward to have conversation down the road and you fix it up in the beginning. And I say this particularly for friends who I go have any kind of business relationship with, it's even more important for me to make sure that we have something in writing. And it can even just be an email that's just described what our conversation was and it's like, this is how I interpret it. Did you agree with all that? Just reply, yes. Imply yes. It's like, okay, we've got an agreement, let's move on now.
Danielle Lewis (42:30):
Yeah, that's so good. I love that. Have the difficult conversations upfront when there aren't emotions. When it's a few years in and something's happened and everyone's cranky and emotions are high, that's not the time to have a productive conversation. Have it now when everything's calm
Ludwina Dautovic (42:49):
And then break bread together. That's so important to me. Every single person that is involved with me in business in some way has, I have either come to my house for dinner or we've had a Zoom dinner together when we couldn't meet or we've gone out and had a drink together. Something like that. It's like there's this thing about, I've got a new advisor, she's an amazing woman. Deborah and her partner came over for dinner on Saturday night, made seafood PE and had Spanish oysters and was sitting out the back on the deck. And it was just kind of, it just creates a level of intimacy and connection with them. That's how we're kicking off our relationship that way. And I just think there's something to be said for that. And we say to our housemates in the first month or so that you're living together, make sure that one night a week could be a Friday night. You sit in your ask a question, how's the week going? Is there anything that you need? Are you having issues with anything? And just talk things out to the point where you don't even need it to be a ritual anymore, just naturally do it when the need arises.
Danielle Lewis (43:52):
Yes,
Ludwina Dautovic (43:53):
It's common sense, Danielle,
Danielle Lewis (43:57):
But nobody has common sense. No, I love it because I think relationship build, I mean I think we've kind of moved between relationships and business, but I think that is what business is all about. Whether it's sales, whether it's advisors, whether it's team. If you can learn how to build great relationships, you can build a great business.
Ludwina Dautovic (44:21):
Absolutely. And if you don't like people don't get into business. Oh
Danielle Lewis (44:26):
God, yes. That's the best advice ever. All you do is deal with people all day.
Ludwina Dautovic (44:35):
No, and you've got to constantly have empathy and understanding for the people who are working with you. Right now we have one of our team who's has a brother that's just been in a car accident and another one whose partner's about to have a baby. So when things like that occur, you've got to go, okay, well this guy is going need two or three weeks off, I think they call it paternity leave or something. He's going to want to have some time where he is. He's not going to want me tapping on his, Hey, how's things going with this? I was like, okay, great. So what do we need to make sure that we've sorted out so that you can go away? And then he's got a rule, he goes, if it's urgent, you can contact me, but you've only got one bluff. So if you use your bluff, then that's it.
Danielle Lewis (45:25):
That's a good
Ludwina Dautovic (45:25):
Rule. I like it. Okay, I get that.
(45:29):
And then the other guy is just checking in with him once a week. You just want to know how he's going. And when you are ready, you let me know and we are here. And in the meantime, we just have to figure it out because that's humanity. And at the underlying of everything that we do, I guarantee everyone who's ever worked with us will say that they felt loved by us and I think that's important. Loved and cared for. And they get, I'm like you. I've got cards, there's images you can see in the background as my artwork. And I make cards out of my, it's what I do when I, I'm not running a company. I paint and I send cards, handwritten cards to people. If somebody's given me their meeting time for a meeting, I'll send, I'll write them a card and thank them for their time. It's just these little things that you do that, like that book you sent. I love it. 1 0 1 Love notes to female founders. It's like, it's so cool. And then you've got this little QR code and I just scan it and then I've got a live message from you. Give me little love note. That's
Danielle Lewis (46:35):
Right. Just bringing joy into your day.
Ludwina Dautovic (46:38):
You
Danielle Lewis (46:38):
Don't get my past enough. I put it in a book for you. I love
Ludwina Dautovic (46:44):
It. I'm going to use that idea. I love it.
Danielle Lewis (46:47):
But you're spot on though, right? It's like people underestimate how important the little things are. We launched an e-commerce brand over Covid back in 2020, and I was blown away. All we used to do on the little shipping note, the little invoice that you send with the product, I used to write a handwritten note. We were a brand new business back then and it was just this little thank you so much for supporting Loved Danny. People were shocked that we'd actually gone to the effort of writing a handwritten note. And it's just, you do forget that it's a little, because there's lots of big corporates that can't do the little things sometimes. That's what differentiates you in business.
Ludwina Dautovic (47:30):
So think about what are the things that people get in the mailbox? What is it? Junk mail bills.
Danielle Lewis (47:40):
That's right. Nothing fun in the mail
Ludwina Dautovic (47:43):
You get. Then when you do finally check your letterbox, most people don't even get mail these days, but when you do finally check it and it's got something that's got a hand and address on the front, it's like, oh my God, who loves me? It must be my old auntie or someone. Yes,
Danielle Lewis (47:58):
That's right. Grandma sending me a Christmas card again and it may so good. No, I love it. Alright, let's wrap on one last question I've got for you. So a lot of people tuning into Spark TV are early founders, they're new in this journey, and it's been a tough few years. Is there anything, any piece of advice or wisdom or insight that has served you well and helped you to keep going on this business journey?
Ludwina Dautovic (48:33):
Yes. Well, gosh, there's a few, but I'd have to say my art definitely. And that was something that I only discovered when I first started the room exchange. I needed something to relax me and switch off because I've worked from home for 28 years as well. So separating myself from that and such a big thing. And when you've got a small team and it means that you are on more on for longer as in you've got the email app on your phone and social media, there's things that you've just got to do when you're a small team. So painting for me, and I didn't realize that I actually could do it, and now I have this place behind me, actually it's a cafe in, it's a photo of a cafe in set in Melbourne could set and deadly scenes. And they've got eight of my pieces there.
(49:24):
And there's another cafe in Leviton called Favor and Grace, and they've got about five of my pieces. And it's just better than having them wrapped in bubble wrap. People enjoy them and sometimes they buy them, but I paint for joy. And it also, interestingly, my experience of painting has actually taught me to be a better problem solver because painting is all about solving problems. The entire process, every single step is about solving a problem and it's about composition and where is things going to go and how's it going to look and feel? And you are constantly making decisions all the time. And that my level of decisiveness is a gift that I think that I have now. And art's actually really sharpened that for me. So being incredibly decisive was good. But the other thing that helps me, and this particularly with keeping my mental health in check, and at times I can take things, emotional things, take them into me too in a physical way, if that makes sense.
(50:23):
Yeah, absolutely. And because I've only got one kidney, I have to be really careful of stress and make sure that my cortisol levels don't shoot up because that can put me in danger. And then I'm dialysis and Harry will have to give me one of his kidneys and transplant joke about it. So journaling is something that I'm really religious about. I say it's like a religious practice and I have two journals, one that's like a practical thing. And then the other one that actually where I write what's happened in my week and day and how I'm feeling and things like that. And it's this constant self-awareness process that I put myself through. And I think the more self-aware that you are, the easier it is to recognize when you are thinking and feeling something and an action comes as a result of that. So thoughts, then you're feeling action.
(51:14):
If you can identify and access where that's coming from, where it's being triggered from. Is it fatigue? Is it this problem with this person that you haven't resolved yet? Is it whatever it is? If you can work out a fight you just have with your partner, whatever, if you can work out where it comes from, then you know that, okay, that's not actually about that. And that has helped me immensely. And even I have a beautiful office space that I come to a couple of times a week in the Continentals, in Melbourne, in Footscray. And I would sit out in the kitchen when I first get started. I'm there with my journals and everyone's looking at me. It's like, yeah, if I go straight to my desk, I won't write, so I have to go somewhere else. And then I hand write everything and then it's just like the shit that's in my head goes, yes, absolutely.
(52:01):
And the stuff that I need to focus on gets noted. And I'm not talking about my to-do list in my Trello board, but I'm just talking about the big things that need to be done that week and how they might be affecting my thoughts and my feelings. And so that's the other thing that I do. And somebody asked me the other day in an interview, what's the best book that you've read? And I said, I've never said this before. And I'm really glad that I did, and I will continue to say it now. And it's my journals. Wow, that's incredible. And I have boxes of them. I've been journaling for years. And there's a young bloke that I listened to, my favorite podcast, his name's Steven Bartlett, he's from England. And the podcast is called The Diary of A CEO. I highly recommend that you listen to it.
(52:46):
It's just infectious. And he says that he writes in a diary, and this whole podcast started with him just sharing notes from his own diary. And now he just, it's a massive podcast and he's a brilliant young man. And there's something about getting something from here and translating it into words on a paper. And it's like same thing with art. And it's like people have really lost the ability to sit and be still with themselves and their own thoughts and their own creativity. They're just so busy all the time. And I'm not saying that I don't get caught up in the tech and the email, social media and stuff, but I'm actually disciplined because I know that it can't be the last thing that I'm doing before I go to sleep. And it can't be the first thing that I do when I wake up because that is going to transform my sleep and it's going to transform my day or decide what it's going to be.
(53:38):
I'd much rather it be something else. So journaling as the last thing that I do before I go to sleep. And then before I start work, I'm journaling. So I think there's just things that whatever your practice is that helps you to do this. Some people it's running. I like to ride my bike, so I do that as well just because I'm not an exercise lover, but I do riding my bike. So I'll do that for exercise and swimming. And so it is just kind of like what fulfills me in a way that just really gets my juices up and there's nothing better when somebody looks at one of my paintings and just gets mesmerized by it. It's just like it's the best feeling in the world. And I got my first commission recently and I'm sitting here anxiously waiting, waiting for her to go, Hey, I love it.
Danielle Lewis (54:25):
My God.
Ludwina Dautovic (54:25):
That's incredible.
Danielle Lewis (54:28):
I love it. I love it. You are absolutely incredible. Ludwina, thank you so much for spending your time and sharing your story and your insights and your wisdom and your tips with the smart community. I'm so grateful for you.
Ludwina Dautovic (54:43):
Look, I'm really glad to have you too. I can't believe it took us so long to get connected. I think Chris introduced us probably, I dunno, five years ago or something. And I dunno, something didn't happen, but then you invited me to become part of this, the sales program that you're doing. And I thought, oh, that's another thing. I think that's important. Just because you might be good at something doesn't mean that you don't need a refresher. And doing this 12 week program with you is actually learning is a very big thing I'm passionate about as well. And putting the time aside each week to just go over our sales process and getting insights from other people and then the coaching sessions that we can have with you on the site as well and being able to talk, Hey, is there something else here that I'm missing?
(55:25):
Do you see potential here in something else that we could sell or service? And it's really good to always put sit at the feet of a master is something that I swear by. And the master might be somebody who really surprises you at that time. It could be a kid that you just need to listen to in a very simple, for simple reasons. Or it could be an elderly person. I've got my Auntie Anne, who's in her eighties, who rang me last night at 10 o'clock and just to spray some love on me. She's my elder. I love her, love her, love her. And you just don't know where the wisdom and the learnings are and just don't sort of think that somebody has to have a whole lot of badges behind their name to be an expert. There are a lot of people. But having said that too, I'm very respectful of people who have actually gone through and studied and learned what it is that they've learned. But for me, the thing I respect the most is application. So knowledge is one thing, but if you can't apply it and also embrace when things don't work and then get back up and keep going, that's what I respect. Right. And that's where the biggest learnings in life has come from for me.
Danielle Lewis (56:35):
Yeah. Look, I couldn't agree with you more. I am always surprised at where I get my inspiration from and I often have people who say, it's that amazing person that's exited this giant e-commerce store. They need to be my mentor. And I'm like, well, they're probably not going to mentor you. You can get mentorship and advice and learnings and wisdom from podcasts, from books, from having a coffee with people in your industry. There's so many places where you can get wisdom. It doesn't need to be that one person. So I totally agree. Be open to the conversations and be open to actually, yeah, I love that. What does it sit at The feet of the master that's gorgeously.
Ludwina Dautovic (57:16):
Sit at the feet of a master. Yeah, a master. Yeah.
Danielle Lewis (57:19):
No, it's awesome. You are amazing. Thank you so much.
