#awinewith Marisa Twentyman
MEET Marisa, founder of DIRTY COPY.
You can find them here:
Transcript
Danielle Lewis (00:05):
Woohoo. Marisa, welcome to Spark tv.
Marisa Twentyman (00:07):
Oh my gosh, I'm so happy to be here.
Danielle Lewis (00:11):
I'm so happy with our fake booze today.
Marisa Twentyman (00:15):
This is kombucha. So yeah, we ran out.
Danielle Lewis (00:17):
Oh no, all good. I love our chat before we hit record. We're being respectable today. It's very early for me, so civilized hot coffee and hoping that that just fuels my day.
Marisa Twentyman (00:31):
Good luck with that
Danielle Lewis (00:32):
After a holiday. Oh my God, I know. It's always so hard coming back after a holiday. You just get into the vibe of just sleeping in and doing whatever you want and ignoring all of the notifications on your phone. It's fantastic.
Marisa Twentyman (00:47):
I know. And you have to ask yourself that question, how important are my ambitions? Really? This is something I really, really want. Do I feel like I need to be an ambitious person or should I just stay in bed?
Danielle Lewis (01:00):
Should I be a lady of luxury? Yes. Yes, absolutely. Oh my God, I love it so much. Okay, let's kick off by telling everybody who you are and what you
Marisa Twentyman (01:10):
Do. I am Marisa. I have a business called Dirty Copy, and I'm a copywriter for brands that don't do boring. So essentially I niched a year ago with my business and I just focus on writing for brands who want personality, but I've actually been pretty surprised at what type of brands want personality bookkeepers, super boring brands are like, I want to be different to the market. So that's been really fun for me.
Danielle Lewis (01:36):
I love that so much because it kind of makes sense though. I know that there are industries that are super boring, like no offense to all the bookkeepers listening and the accountants, they know they're that's self aware. Oh my god, that's so funny. But it's so true. It's like, well, I know that job's boring. I don't want to do it, but I'd much rather work with somebody. That's my vibe, that's fun and whatever. And I love that you get there through the copy on their website or in their materials.
Marisa Twentyman (02:06):
Totally. And it's also for jobs or for service space industries who really find it hard to differentiate themselves because bookkeeper does essentially what every other bookkeeper does that you can really differentiate yourself through the way you shop and your brand and through having more fun copy or more personality. And yeah, it reflects on the person who is giving the services and people are like, well, yeah, I'd far rather work with someone who's fun or boring. If four ring's your thing then boring. There's boring of them out there. That can be a niche too.
Danielle Lewis (02:39):
I love that so much. And then, so one question I wanted to ask you, should every brand be fun? Can anyone do this? And are there scales of fun? We're saying, because I love your brand name dirty copy, but is it like if I wanted to be semi fun and not offensive fun, can I do that as well? Are there
Marisa Twentyman (03:02):
Ranges? Totally. Okay. So first of all, should every brand have so much personality? No, I don't think they should. One of my favorite brands to follow is she's called Tamo Sophie from Tamico Studio. She's a designer and she's really well written. She's really genuine and honest, and that comes through and I wouldn't want her to be my brand. We want different brands for different things. So I don't think everyone should feel the need because not that it's a trend at the moment, but we are really moving away from professional. So I don't think everyone should feel like they need to, but if really they think that is me, that is where all that is where I want my brand to go, then yes, absolutely. That's a way to stand out in the market. And my name is Dirty Coffee, but I don't associate myself with first of all the adult entertainment industry, although I didn't think that went through with the whole inbox thing, email marketing and
Danielle Lewis (04:01):
Spam. Oh my God, of course.
Marisa Twentyman (04:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I've got ways around that, where was I going with this? And the other thing I think people associate brands with personality is lots of swearing and kind of a little bit more vulgar. And that's not really my thing either. Just throwing out F-bombs to have personality. So yes, there are different levels of different layers and levels of personality. You can go really, really fun, witty or kind of quirky. But then one of my favorite brands that I've written for was actually a construction company and my sister owns the company, so I knew her company inside out, the Luxury Builders in Queenstown. So beautiful tourist destination. And I wrote kind of really clear headlines, but for some of her copy I would write, we give, we're attentive to detail, we are great at communication, and we serve up excellent banter. So just little ways like that add in personality. And I actually had someone email, someone emailed my sister saying, the copy is so amazing. It made me love your brand so much. And that's just a way of just softening that professional approach. And they weren't full personality, but it really, really added warmth to the brand.
Danielle Lewis (05:21):
I think that is so awesome. This is the first interaction that potential customers have with us. I think so many people think that the first interaction is getting people on a sales call or us reaching out, but so many people are doing their own research online now that we really have to think about the way we are presenting our brand on our website, on our socials, anything that's publicly available on the internet where people could do their own research, it's so important to have great copy and really think through how the brand is coming across.
Marisa Twentyman (05:57):
It's so true, and it's the equivalent of energy in real life. You judge someone off our conversation and personality and you just get a feel for a person. It's not even necessarily anything they're saying, although on Copy it is. And so I think that's where copy is really, really, really key. Giving energy to a brand or lack of energy to a brand.
Danielle Lewis (06:19):
Yeah, true. I've seen plenty of those. So how do you get started? So if I was a brand and I was like, I feel like my vibe is not coming through, how would you start working with a business on creating that kind of persona and then copy?
Marisa Twentyman (06:40):
For me, I mean you can do brand voice guides. I personally have stopped doing them myself, but you can go to other copywriters, keep brand voice guides. But I think one of the questions that I ask in my questionnaire, I take my clients through a really, really intense questionnaire. I'm always like, I'm so sorry and a strategy session, but it's like, what don't you want to be like to start off with? Because people often dunno how they want to show up, but they're really, really clear with what they don't want to be like. So what don't you want to be like? What phrases don't you associate yourself with and what are the brands also that you get inspired by? And one of my questions is, what brands are you secretly jealous of? Or what brands do you secretly want to copy? And they have elements of what you want in there. But as a copywriter, I just kind of listened to in between the gaps of what people are saying, but if you were a brand yourself, I mean I would just start with trying to write you speak.
Danielle Lewis (07:44):
Yes.
Marisa Twentyman (07:45):
Because we don't need to have all the, even in emails, if people are on my email list, I got not a testimonial for someone, but someone said, can I just ask you how you write your emails? It sounds like you don't care at all. And that's actually meant to be a compliment. You just go straight in, you're talking to someone, no, hey, happy Monday. How was your day? We've just been doing this straight in for the filler content. Take all the filler out and just be radically authentic and not feeling like there's this, what the brands that I really love are the brands that I don't feel like there's a sense of rehearsal behind it. So if you feel like you've got to direct access to someone when they're on their stories and you feel like it's not the 10th tape or they're not saying Happy Monday, or they're just kind of just stream of consciousness talking though, that could get boring. I feel like that is a really, really great way to start. And same with your emails. Yeah, get rid of the fills. Just go straight in for the kill. It doesn't need to be this formal thing where you try really, really hard. It can just be thoughts from your mouth, thoughts from your heart, couple of sentences. I dunno if that answered your question. No,
Danielle Lewis (08:56):
It totally does because I think it gives people some actionable ways to get started. And I do love that. I feel like today as well, and a lot of people listening, they are brands that are the personal brand as well. Obviously let's just take Spark as the example. It is me. It is. Sure it's been branded as a name and there are lots of people involved in all those things. But I'm the one whose video first face you'll see on all the videos, hear on all the podcasts, I write all the emails and all the things. So it makes sense that speaking from your heart and just almost like conversation, it's like have a conversation with your ideal customer and it's like you would be a normal human being, so why not just show up as a normal human being on your website as a point. Totally. And then optimize from there.
Marisa Twentyman (09:51):
Totally on an email I've just written for a workshop that I have coming up. I just wrote, come to the workshop, blah, blah, blah, blah. This is my first workshop. So like, are we excited? Are we nervous? Is this going to be a total train wreck? We'll all find out together. So just letting people in on actually your thought process. You don't have to be a hundred percent confident or a hundred percent polished the whole time. And I think people are surprised by that and surprise gets attention and I think people respond to the honesty. So yes, when you are yourself and your own brand, letting people in, and I don't know about you, but the brands that you follow, I'm going to guess are the ones that are just authentic
Danielle Lewis (10:35):
As
Marisa Twentyman (10:35):
Well. And I had someone send me the other day, she said, oh my gosh, I love following these brands. And she sent me these links to these clothing brands and I was like, I don't follow any brands like that anymore. They're all perfectly curated feeds. And that wasn't appealing to me anymore. So I think the rough diamond is what people are after.
Danielle Lewis (10:55):
Yeah. Oh my God. I'm literally sitting here thinking the job I'm going to do today is my about page because my about page sucks. It's just, it's the five dot points on the, this is what I meant to say on an about page. And I was like, there's no love in there. I'm literally fixing that today. You have inspired me.
Marisa Twentyman (11:14):
Yay. I would also say that just a tip for you as you're going to write it. I think when people sit down to write, they have a mental book, they freeze. Just voice memo to yourself.
Danielle Lewis (11:26):
Oh, cool.
Marisa Twentyman (11:27):
And see what you'd say. Be like, I'm a this, this, and this, and I'm obsessed with coffee drinking and I also have a thing for blah, blah, blah. It all started when in a storytelling way, in a voice memo, just write it down badly and then see what comes up, see what you can copy and paste and cut out and whatnot.
Danielle Lewis (11:45):
That is such good advice. Thank you. Especially because I know so many people do freeze up when they start writing, but it is natural just to chat. I think that's why the voice memo thing has taken off because it is just so much easier for people just to hold down the little microphone button and start ranting.
Marisa Twentyman (12:04):
It's easier to rant, but then sometimes when you open it up and there's four voice memos from someone, you're like, I do not have time for this. Oh my God.
Danielle Lewis (12:13):
Oh my God. To be fair, I hate them because I am always out and about and I'm like, I can't listen to this now and I've opened it and now I'm going to forget and then I'm going to take days to get back to you. I'm going to wait till I'm in the right space to listen to it. So I hate them.
Marisa Twentyman (12:29):
And the person's seen that you've seen them,
Danielle Lewis (12:32):
So now they think, no, I'm ignoring them.
Marisa Twentyman (12:34):
And then also they've put so much effort into the Four voice memo.
Danielle Lewis (12:39):
I know. It's so funny. I mean, look, but it is a nice way to connect people with people. It's so personal actually hearing your voice. And I feel like as well in our day and age of bots, and I'm guilty of this, we use bots. Yeah, many chat Instagram and stuff, which is so helpful. But I guess then it's why it would be so cool and surprising if you had a personalized voice note come.
Marisa Twentyman (13:05):
Totally. I totally, and I love to, I'm being super hypocritical here. I love to send voice memos. I write all the time.
Danielle Lewis (13:14):
Oh my God, I love it. I want to put a voice note on the about page now, do the written and then just put a secret voice note so you can play it.
Marisa Twentyman (13:22):
Gosh, that's such a good idea. Has that been done before?
Danielle Lewis (13:25):
You might have someone, I'm sure it's not my idea, but I like it. That could happen. You never know. So how did you even get into running your own copy business?
Marisa Twentyman (13:35):
Great question. I was a high school teacher for so many years, and I knew that was kind of coming to the end of it. I'd been doing it for 11 years and I always said to myself, I'm never going to become an old woman just who's been in the same classroom for years. And that teaches the same material. I also kind of knew there was more for me. I'd started interning maybe six or seven years ago with a startup beauty company in New Zealand, and he taught me a little bit of copywriting, but I actually forgot about that. And I had decided that I wanted to start a business. So not knowing anything about this crazy online world and how many amazing entrepreneurs there are in the online space, you kind of get into that little bubble. I knew none of that. So I was thinking, okay, what do people need? So ridiculous. Now it's like they need proofreaders and editors and they don't, to be
Danielle Lewis (14:29):
Fair, a lot of people could value from that.
Marisa Twentyman (14:31):
Yes. But ai, grammarly, it's just like a dying art. So I took a year study literally how to be a proofreader. It was so fricking boring. And then when I was about to start my business, I was just, by chance a neighbor had stopped by my mother-in-law's. And I told her about my business and I said, oh, what about what I actually want to be as a writer? And she said, you should be a copywriter. And I was like, great. I should be a copywriter. Went home. Google what that Googled what that was. That's awesome. And I was like, this is my dream job. I knew it. I just knew. I was like, this is the thing that I know I'm going to be so good at. I just have never had that doubt. And so I launched into, gosh, I would've been studying for hours a day just listening to podcasts, YouTube clips, doing courses for months and months. I dunno how many hours I'd devoted, but it was a lot. And then I just took the leap on Instagram. I just put out a story and said I'm about to start a business being a proofreader editor and copywriter. And then I got my first two copy clients, and then I eventually just stopped doing proofreading and editing. I don't think I did any proofreading jobs, thank God.
(15:47):
And so that's how I got into it. And I will say when I got into it, I did what I think everyone else does, and I looked around, saw what the competitors were, saw what everyone else was doing, and modeled my business off that, my brand off that my brand colors, even what I was saying, I wasn't copying them a really, really close community about seeing the messaging that they had. And so that was fine. I had a nice brand, but as I continued on in business, it felt like this disconnect. And I know so many people when you feel that emotional disconnect with your brand, it's so hard to show up. So I had been in business for a year, I think it's that stage or slightly under. And I just said to my husband, I'm stopping. I'm stopping taking clients three month break. I'm just going to pour everything into a rebrand. It was so freaking hard, but it was the best thing I ever did, and it felt like a massive risk calling my business dirty copy. It felt like a massive risk having this poo green color as my brain color. But literally though, it's not actually poo green though. It's more like diarrhea
Danielle Lewis (16:51):
Green,
Marisa Twentyman (16:52):
Diarrhea, green, brown.
Danielle Lewis (16:54):
Oh my God. It's so funny because I've seen your brand obviously, and I have obviously spoken to you, and I wouldn't have gone to Poo Green or Diary Green, but now that you say it, I can't unsee it.
Marisa Twentyman (17:11):
Yeah, no, it definitely is it. So it all felt like a risk, but in hindsight, it was just the biggest opportunity because what you feel like when you're doing something different or when you're kneeing down, you feel really exposed and really vulnerable. And is anyone going to actually want brands with personality? Are people going to come to me? And it has been the best decision, the best business decision I've made, and it was scary.
Danielle Lewis (17:36):
Wow.
Marisa Twentyman (17:36):
And expensive.
Danielle Lewis (17:39):
And not taking clients for three months, that's huge as well. Oh my God.
Marisa Twentyman (17:44):
Yeah. It was a big financial hit. My husband had to be like, okay, I guess you're just rechecking everything a year after you've started. And he saw how painful it was when I was doing my own Wix website in the first place. So budget, honestly, I wish I could have just gone back in time and paid someone. There is just no point trying to figure it out yourself when you could outsource.
Danielle Lewis (18:02):
Totally. I always say that to people. It's like some things absolutely hold onto do as much as you can as being the business owner to save money until you grow. But some things you're like, it's going to take you months, if not years, to actually get that out there. Just pay someone to do it.
Marisa Twentyman (18:18):
I know. And I could have been getting clients that whole time and just that emotional torment of doing something that isn't your zone of genius just outsource.
Danielle Lewis (18:29):
Oh my God, that is the best advice. I always think that whenever I find myself doing a task and I'm dying going, oh my God, I'm so bored.
Marisa Twentyman (18:38):
That's
Danielle Lewis (18:39):
When I'm like, okay, pop this one on the list of things to outsource and I can
Marisa Twentyman (18:42):
A thousand percent, and there's this quote that's like, I'm going to butcher it, but it's like, you should be a successful boss, pays for everyone else to do anything. Okay, let's just know that it's terrible. But basically your job is to designate as much as your job out as possible. So for me, I know that's kind of where I'm headed. The creativity is my thing and all the other things like the admin that is just not my jam. I will do anything to avoid opening an Excel spreadsheet.
Danielle Lewis (19:17):
It's so true. It's funny. So I recorded a podcast yesterday about the difference between thousand dollars tasks and $10 tasks. So basically the idea is you add value here to a certain number of things you have to do that you are the skill, you are the genius, that's the stuff that's going to grow your business. And then there's all this other stuff like the Excel spreadsheet, the admin, the bookkeeping, even editing this podcast. Obviously I am the one that needs to interview, but I don't really need to edit it. I don't add any value there. Big love to Dan, my editor, I've said this twice now, I'm like, you're amazing, Dan. I'm not being awful here. But other people can do those jobs, so they're called $10 tasks. So it's like anything that you don't need to do, put that on a list, document them out, create a process and get them outsourced so that way you can free up your time and you can actually scale the business not doing all of the things that you really don't add value to anyway.
Marisa Twentyman (20:21):
Totally. That's definitely my next step in business. I mean, I've started outsourcing a little bit, but you can just see that's the way to grow. And again, that's a risk as well because forking out money, but that's just, I mean, that's what you got to do it to grow.
Danielle Lewis (20:37):
Yeah, and I always say, because when I first started my business a decade ago, I thought you had to just hire full-time people. And I don't think we talked about VAs as much back then, but now I'm like, no. Just literally, once you get one task and you've got a process around it and you can hand it over, get a VA to just do that one thing. So you're spending, I don't know, maybe a hundred bucks a month for them to do that thing. And it just gives you a taste of getting something off your plate, and then you can slowly kind of ramp it up as you can afford it. And as that time that you've freed up helps you get more business, you can kind of offload more. So I liked it today we can do it in a more easier stagger way, sustainable way to
Marisa Twentyman (21:21):
Exactly. It's not like you have to bring on a full-time member and stop paying yourself anymore.
Danielle Lewis (21:27):
Yeah. Oh my God, that would be a nightmare. Been there. Oh my God. Don't make the same mistake I did. Oh, that's hilarious. What do you think has been the biggest challenge for you since starting your business?
Marisa Twentyman (21:42):
Oh, there have been
Danielle Lewis (21:45):
All of them.
Marisa Twentyman (21:45):
A lot of challenges. I mean, I think it's the being a mom with two small kids and the challenge of you tell yourself you're doing this for them. I mean, I'm not really doing it for them. I am doing it for them so I can stay at home more. I am doing it for myself, but you have to be honest, I'm doing it for myself, but I'm also doing it for them so that I don't have to, I work three days a week at the moment, so I can spend a little bit more time with them. But it's just, then I'm working at night and it's just the work life balance, and I just feel like I've got sick more than I should have. My health has definitely taken a hit, and I've just kind of had this epiphany the other day. There's no opportunity as important as your health.
(22:36):
So I mean, just having the boundaries for yourself to say no. And at the moment, I have a wait list, and when inquiries come through, I genuinely want to work with these amazing business owners, but I have to choose between them and me, and it sounds so hard, but in the past, I'd want to be saying, yes, I want to help them. Also, it lights me up creatively, but I've had to say no. And I've had to work on ways that I can work with them without leveraging my time. So at the moment, I'm doing a DIY kind of plug and play copy course so that I can be like, you can't work with me in this way, but you can work with me in that way. So I would say boundaries around time, and I mean, systems are always really hard for me as a creative person. That's been difficult. Yeah. I mean, that's enough. I feel like I, I should have more. I mean,
Danielle Lewis (23:36):
That's huge, right? Yeah. Yeah. So huge and mean. Even the business model challenge of being a service provider where you are the one that needs to do the work, you are so right. I think it's nice. Sometimes we say to ourselves, I'm just going to take on all the clients and I'm going to make all the money and I can do it, and I can just, I'm just going to go go until I've hit this goal. And then it's like, yeah, you're like, well, no, I'm fucking tired. I haven't hung out with my family. I haven't hung out with my friends. I haven't done this. I haven't done that. I'm sick. It actually becomes not worth it.
Marisa Twentyman (24:15):
No, I know. And I had, this was my biggest month. I mean, I'm only working by myself, but two months ago I had a 15 K month, and at the end of it I was like, I'm never ever doing that again. No, absolutely not.
Danielle Lewis (24:30):
Yeah.
Marisa Twentyman (24:30):
It's just not worth it. Yes, you can say yes to everything and then have no life. What are we in business for?
Danielle Lewis (24:37):
But
Marisa Twentyman (24:37):
Then, sorry, carry on.
Danielle Lewis (24:39):
No, I was just going to agree with you. That's such a good question. What am I in business for? I feel like you need to answer that for yourself to know where the boundary actually is.
Marisa Twentyman (24:50):
And then I also think it's hard when you're an ambitious person and you can see the potential. So I have so many ideas, and there are some service providers, and they'll always be happy just providing their service. And I'm kind of jealous of that a little bit because that just feels so nice. But for me, I'm like, oh no, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to create this empire. But then it's also the balance of your ambitions versus your lifestyle. So that's something I'm always weighing up.
Danielle Lewis (25:19):
Yeah, totally. And I love the idea of the course, the DIY version, so that you can bring that scale into your business. I mean, I think it's something that a lot of people when they first start their business do, start it around a skillset that they have and quickly realize that, oh shit, I am the only person here that can deliver in this, and what do I do? Do I build a team and then I risk them not being quite as skilled as I am or having a totally different style or whatever. I do love taking your knowledge and putting that into something that you can actually scale and serve more people, help more people without it impacting your time as much. I think that's really,
Marisa Twentyman (26:06):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, have to, I'm also, I'm such a, I don't know if I am A DHD, but I'm go through periods of like, I'm going to be working 75 hours a day for three months, and then I don't want to do any work. So I feel like that model just works really well. I can work with clients here or not work with clients there. I mean, as I'm saying it, it sounds delusional, but I'll see how it will work out in real life.
Danielle Lewis (26:35):
But it is interesting. I find myself like that too, in the sense that I'm like, okay, yeah, some days I'm like, Nope, I'm sitting here and I'm getting this and I'm so motivated. I'll batch out heaps of videos and do really intensive work. And then other days I'm like, I don't want to talk to anybody today. I don't even want to open my laptop. And so I go through those ebbs and flows, but I find it really hard on the down day, or not down in the sense of depressed down, but in the, I don't want to work today days. I do feel really guilty. I know. But I think we've got to say to ourselves, well, it's a balance. Some days you go go. Other days we're resting and recuperating, and if on balance we feel like we're putting in the effort to grow our businesses, then that can't be a bad thing.
Marisa Twentyman (27:23):
I totally agree. The guilt thing's really hard as well. I think just you do so much, and I think as business owners, we've trained ourselves to always be like, okay, going to do this, got to do this, got to do this. And then if there's a period of time where we don't do it, yeah, it's like we're doing something wrong. But actually no, as a creative person, I am starting to learn that the times where you do nothing are just almost even more important than the times than you're on. Yeah. But always in my downtime, there's never good reality tv, but whenever I've got a shitload to do, it's like there's a new season of selling sunsets come out. It's like a joke of the universe.
Danielle Lewis (28:03):
Oh my God, that's so true. That's so funny. I know. It's literally you'll be sitting there, well, how can I veg today? And I'm like, then I even get into that. I'll have a book or saying, I'm like, I'm not even interested in this book. I don't even want to do this. I know. Oh my God. I love it. I love it. So I always love to wrap up these podcasts with one last piece of advice. So reflecting on your time in business, what would be one last piece of advice that you would give to another woman on her journey?
Marisa Twentyman (28:36):
Just like you're going to feel scared. Just ignore it. Just like everyone feels scared. I feel nervous and scared after I've posted every single time, even though I get really good response. It's just like we've just got to learn to ignore those feelings because I think they're really human, really normal. It's really vulnerable being out in business, and I am just expect to feel scared with every single new thing that you do, and just ignore it, move on, get busy enough to not feel scared. That's where I'm at at the moment. I'm too busy to feel nervous about my launch, so I'm just ignoring it.
Danielle Lewis (29:14):
I think that's the best advice ever. Get so busy, you don't feel scared. You ignore the scared. I love it. I love it. You don't have time to indulge the emotion. Yeah. I think I'm going to use that. Marisa, you are absolutely incredible. Thank you so much for sharing your journey and your insights and your wisdom and all of the copy goodness with us today. Really appreciate you coming on the show.
Marisa Twentyman (29:39):
Oh my gosh, it's been so fun talking to you. You bring such great energy and the vibes always. Always. Yeah. Cool. Well chat soon.
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