#awinewith Maddie Muller
MEET Maddie
Maddie is the Founder of Harness Creation.
Find Maddie here:
Harness Creation website or Instagram @harnesscreation.
Transcript
Danielle Lewis (00:08):
Let's do it. Let's do it. Maddie, welcome to Spark tv. I'm so excited.
Madie Muller (00:14):
I've listened to so many of these. I'm ready. I'm prepared. I've got my notes written. I'm good to go. Oh
Danielle Lewis (00:22):
My God. Well, I'm so glad because I have no notes. I'm just making it up as I go along, so I'm glad one of us is actually prepared for this conversation. Oh,
Madie Muller (00:31):
Of course, of course.
Danielle Lewis (00:33):
Oh, so good. Now, if anyone dialing in doesn't know this, Maddie is the amazing person who actually means that Spark TV gets out onto the interwebs.
Madie Muller (00:45):
I bring it off the ground. Yes, I do all the back stuff. Danny is the amazing face of it, but I do the, yes, actually get it from her brain out into the world, really,
Danielle Lewis (00:55):
Which I'm glad somebody does, because otherwise all I would do is talk on Zoom and no one would know about it.
Madie Muller (01:02):
You'd just have a good half an hour and then Yep.
Danielle Lewis (01:04):
You'd go off into the sunset. Oh my God. So let's start there. So let's tell everyone, no, this is going to be one of those chats where we're just like, ah, this is what we do.
Madie Muller (01:13):
It is,
Danielle Lewis (01:15):
Let's tell everyone what you do, what harness creation is, all of the amazing things so we can set the scene.
Madie Muller (01:22):
Okay. So harness creation, funnily enough, did not originally start for podcast editing. I know I originally kind of the idea was content creation studio for influencers. So we had the podcast studio, I had the filming studio and photography set outside, and then as it's kind of gone, it has really morph into this whole other beast. So now I also do social media management for people. I edit podcasts for people, and it's also usually not even for influencers anymore, it's mostly for businesses. So yeah, that's kind of a quick summary of the business now.
Danielle Lewis (02:03):
Cool. And I think that's how we originally got connected was influencers coming into the space, doing shoots, all the sales goodness. And then it's like you telling me how important podcasts were and then me going, cool. Can you help me?
Madie Muller (02:20):
Oh, good. Yeah, yeah. Actually, you came to my launch, which was honestly retrospectively, I mean, at the time it was a slight disaster as well, but retrospectively, I'm like, there were only three people showed up and I was kind of like, oh wow. Realities of business are setting in early.
Danielle Lewis (02:39):
It's the worst. It's the worst.
Madie Muller (02:41):
Oh, really? It really, yeah. Oh, well, I learned my lesson early on. I guess you got to fail hard and fast.
Danielle Lewis (02:47):
Totally. And I mean, I don't think that ever ends, unfortunately. Oh, so true. We were just chatting before we hit record. And that's so it, right? There's all of these things to do. There's all of these, half of them don't work, and then you're like, oh. And it's so exciting having all the ideas and then, yeah, the business reality is you actually have to follow through with them. You actually have to do the shit stuff as well.
Madie Muller (03:12):
Yeah. I think we discussed this late last year. I started a second business Prop hq, which I already sold. Yes. Oh, cool. I was going to
Danielle Lewis (03:23):
Ask you what happened to that.
Madie Muller (03:25):
Yeah, yeah. So I started, it was a hiring party equipment type of situation, and I did a partnership with my brother. He had a bigger percentage in the business, but I kind of was doing all of that because I had the experience with Harness. I was doing all of the social media and I set up the whole website and probably six to eight weeks into it, I was like, I cannot do this for two businesses. The reality is not meshing with the vision in my head. So yeah, we sold it really quickly,
Danielle Lewis (03:59):
But also That's amazing. How did that even happen? How did you sell a business after two months? Oh, we have this idea now we're going to sell it.
Madie Muller (04:07):
Literally, wait till I tell you. It was on freaking Facebook marketplace. We sold the business on marketplace.
Danielle Lewis (04:13):
Holy shit. Really?
Madie Muller (04:15):
For a profit.
Danielle Lewis (04:16):
Oh, oh my God. This, God,
Madie Muller (04:19):
This is, I know. Crazy. Absolutely crazy. So we kind of just bought all of the stock from someone was how it started. And then yeah, two months in, we'd set up the website, we'd done all the social media. We were getting a little bit of traction enough to be covering the rent that we were paying. And then yeah, we were like, we don't want this anymore. Let's just see what happens. And literally, I think it was in about two weeks, it was gone. So
Danielle Lewis (04:41):
Oh my God, that is so good. It's so funny. Everyone talks about selling businesses. It's this super crazy, and it depends on the type of business you have and all that kind of stuff. But when we sold the answer, which was our hand sanitizer, bathroom stuff, e-commerce business, it was the same. I had this grand plan of, okay, here's all the people I'm going to talk to. This is business directory, listing site. We can sell businesses. And it was literally this chick that saw our product in a store, saw on our Instagram that we were closing down and reached out. It was like, so none of my plans, none of my strategic grand plans worked.
Madie Muller (05:24):
It's, I've been talking with a couple of people who, because I actually have a physical location for the studio, so I've been talking, I've got all my neighbors, I've been talking to some of them, and they've kind of been like, oh, I think I'm ready to start planning my exit strategy. And I'm like, you don't need an exit strategy. It is way easier to do it than you think.
Danielle Lewis (05:44):
I know. And maybe we just got lucky and then everyone else is like, you liars, you said it would be easy.
Madie Muller (05:51):
Yeah, that's true. Someone's going to message me after this and be like, I thought do in two think so.
Danielle Lewis (05:57):
Oh my God. I know. But it's really interesting. I think that's just a good business lesson. Best laid plans don't always work out, and sometimes just trying random things that you might think don't work out or won't work out actually other things that work.
Madie Muller (06:17):
Oh, absolutely. I remember one of my biggest, so my mom is a business consultant, so I had a lot of advice from her before I started, and one of the things that she said right when I was opening, which has really stuck with me, was she was like, your business is not going to look what you think it's going to look like in one year. That's a really bad way of saying that, but you know what I mean? Yes. It's going to be completely different in a year. And at first I was like, no, I've come up with the ideal model, but now I know
Danielle Lewis (06:49):
Everything. Mom.
Madie Muller (06:50):
Literally, literally 23 years old, I was like, I can do this. Your 20 years of experience means nothing.
Danielle Lewis (06:57):
Exactly.
Madie Muller (06:58):
Yeah.
Danielle Lewis (06:59):
Thanks. Business consultants, thanks. Successful businesswoman.
Madie Muller (07:03):
Literally. Yeah. No, but no. So it is just one of those things where it's like you just cannot, can't be stuck in your way of thinking. You have to be fluid. It's the only way to succeed really, because yeah, if something goes wrong, you have to be able to pivot. If something's going right, you have to be like, okay, well, I have to follow that.
Danielle Lewis (07:26):
Totally. Yeah. It is is so true. I feel like people think that they've failed if the plan they originally had doesn't pan out. But I think you're right. It's like don't expect the plan to work out. The failure is in not actually adjusting and changing and trying something new.
Madie Muller (07:50):
Oh, that's how people go broke is they think that they've hit the mark when it's like, well, you're not listening to what your consumers are saying. It's not that you've launched at the wrong time or whatever. Something's wrong. You have to pivot.
Danielle Lewis (08:03):
Yeah. Oh my God, that's so true. I think I'm the queen of pivots. I think I actually have a pivot problem. I think that I disguise ideas as pivots just go, oh, I'm going to try that. Oh, I'm going to try that. I was like, would you just focus on one thing, please, woman.
Madie Muller (08:21):
I mean, you've got to find the joy somewhere, right? You are the one who, if you are the CO, if you are the founder, yeah, I don't know, there's so much pressure on you. You might as well find enjoyment somehow. And if that's changing the business model, then that's changing the business model.
Danielle Lewis (08:36):
I love that so much. I'm going to use that as I'm going to take that and use that as my excuse sitting on this idea, and I can't let it go, and I'm going to be like, Maddie told me to find the joy.
Madie Muller (08:50):
She said, I could do it. I
Danielle Lewis (08:52):
Blame Maddie.
Madie Muller (08:53):
Yeah. If sitting on an idea for that long, then why let it go?
Danielle Lewis (08:59):
I know my opinion, actually. No, but I really like your point, finding the joy, because I do think we as business owners, entrepreneurs, founders, whatever, we all want to call ourselves these days, we do. The thing we're good at is being excited and coming up with new things and launching things and creating things, and then yeah, you get into business a couple of years in and you're like a slave to the to-do list.
Madie Muller (09:28):
Oh my gosh.
Danielle Lewis (09:29):
Yeah. Maybe if you don't circle back to the thing that ignited the excitement in the beginning, maybe that is where things kind of die and fall off a cliff when you get stuck in the to-dos.
Madie Muller (09:40):
Well, I think so, because I think it's ultimately kind of a bit like, well, why did you start a business in the first place? If you're just doing the to-dos, you might as well have a nine to five job where you're probably getting more money more reliably. Yeah. I don't know. That's my opinion at least.
Danielle Lewis (09:57):
I love that I'm stealing that opinion and I am going to do this thing that I want to do
Madie Muller (10:02):
Today after we finish recording. You have to tell me what it is. I'm so curious.
Danielle Lewis (10:08):
Oh my God, so good. I will. There'll probably be a third podcast. Oh my. No, I need to draw the line. I need to draw the line. Oh my God. Although I know, but it's so funny, now that I know the process of a podcast, I kind of go, oh, I could do a podcast to run this idea. Oh, I can do a podcast around this idea.
Madie Muller (10:30):
They're so easy to make and they're actually really fun as well. I love them as a form of content marketing, but they also, they just bring a little bit of the joy in because you kind of go back to being like, well, I'm talking about my passion, the thing that I'm good at, the reason why I started the business in the first place, and then it doubles as a marketing strategy. It's fricking genius.
Danielle Lewis (10:52):
Oh my God. I know. And I literally said this to my partner the other day. I'm like, I think the thing that I like about my business is just talking to people. I'm like, can I just make money being a podcast host?
Madie Muller (11:05):
Oh my God. Well, you're a salesperson, so if you were good as a salesperson, that's your whole thing, right? Yeah,
Danielle Lewis (11:11):
Totally. Oh my God, that's so cool. I'm just scale. That's a good way to scale. Being a salesperson is a podcast. I reckon I can reach millions of people.
Madie Muller (11:23):
I think that you've hit the nail on the head.
Danielle Lewis (11:27):
Oh my God, I love that. So actually, so when we loop back to the beginning of harness and No, no, this is brilliant. I love it. I love it. I've already started another business. Where else could go wrong? What else could go wrong? Maddy, 10
Madie Muller (11:42):
Minutes in.
Danielle Lewis (11:44):
So when you first started harness, were you on the hunt for a content creation studio? Was it like, I've got this brilliant idea, I want a place or, so what was that story? What's kind of the pre harness and how it kicked off?
Madie Muller (12:00):
Well, it's kind of a combination. So I did, I studied history and international relations for stupid. I know, I know. It's so unrelated. But during my later years of that, I was creating YouTube videos, and then I started a podcast with my friend and there was actually a podcast studio here in Brisbane at a really affordable price. And we went there for probably three or four months, but then it closed down, and I still don't know why, but it closed down and I was kind of like, oh, but that was a really good idea. That was a smart, that's cool, that's innovation. And then there was kind of this moment where I was like, well, hang on a second. It doesn't have to just be podcast studio. I actually need somewhere to film my YouTube videos. I can't just keep doing this at home. I don't have the equipment, I don't have the privacy, the space, whatever.
(12:57):
And so I was like, well, why don't I just do it all? It all kind of falls under the same umbrella of content creation, right? Totally. So I was like, it's not like it's completely unrelated concept, so, so I literally was like, oh, I can probably just do it myself. And it did take, to be fair, it took a little while from that point to it actually starting, but most of that was actually trying to find a place to rent because I was 23 years old, obviously had no credit score. I'd only lived out of home once before, so I only had one residential rental to kind of prove I would keep paying. I didn't even have a business plan. So the person who I know, the person who eventually has leased to me, she was like, oh, I was your age when I bought this and I ran my business out of the front door and I'm just going to give you a go. And I was like,
Danielle Lewis (13:54):
Oh, I love that. That's so
Madie Muller (13:57):
Good. She's the sweetest woman. Yeah, she's very, very kind. And she basically just kind of took a shot on me. And so as soon as I signed the lease, I was like, fuck,
Danielle Lewis (14:09):
Oh, denoted. Now we got to make this
Madie Muller (14:11):
Happen. Oh yeah. And I think I grew up pretty, we weren't extremely wealthy, but I comfortable, we were privileged. And so I've been working since I was 13 or 14 because mom was like, you got to get a cafe job, whatever. So I'd been in a hospital for 10 years at that point. Love my mom's the best I know. Bless her. So yeah, I'd been in a hospital for 10 years, but with kind of a privileged home life. So I didn't really have a concept of money up until that point. And so then I signed a lease and suddenly I was liable for a lot of money a week. I was like, oh my, how do I make this work? What have I gotten myself into here? And it is literally just been what that was 18 months ago. So it is literally just been 18 months of being like, how do I pay my bills?
Danielle Lewis (15:06):
I think that is the plight of every business owner everywhere. It's just what the heck am I going to do this month to pay rent or pay my bills?
Madie Muller (15:15):
Absolutely. And kind of circling back around to what you were saying before about finding the joy, it's kind of like, I think that is exactly where business owners get stuck because you do just get into this absolute funnel of being like, I have so many responsibilities, and I was really lucky because mom and dad let me move back in home, so I wasn't paying rent normally. They were helping me with food and all my other stuff, so all I was liable for was the business expenses. I can't even imagine the stress of everything else on top of that. And I still got sucked into the, oh my God, where is the joy in this? What have I done? What am I doing? Why would I think at 23 years old, it was a good idea to start a business? Yeah.
Danielle Lewis (15:56):
Oh my God. So how did you climb out of that?
Madie Muller (16:00):
Such a good question. I mean, it kind happened honestly by accident. Sorry, nothing.
Danielle Lewis (16:08):
It's okay. Everyone hates us already in this podcast,
Madie Muller (16:12):
Literally.
Danielle Lewis (16:13):
But it probably wasn't an accident. It was probably, I don't even know what you're going to say yet, but it was probably all of your hard work stacking up, not an accident.
Madie Muller (16:22):
Well, a little bit. So it was kind of, again, a combination. So the studio rental stuff kind of aside, this was how the social media side of it got born is because, so it was a friend of mom's who owns a business here in Paddington, and that company had just blown up. They'd gotten really big, they had a whole marketing team that they were paying from Melbourne or Sydney or whatever, really big deal. And the PR team as well, they were paying extortion amounts of money to, they told me how much they were paying per month. I was like, that's ridiculous. And we got to talking. I was like, oh, harness social media is kind of going really well. I'm learning a lot. And she was like, oh, do you want to run my social media? I was like, I don't know if I'm qualified for that. She was like, well, look, the reality of it is is I'm going to have to pay you way less money than I pay them, and they're not getting very good output. So if you can replicate what you've been doing for Hannahs for me, I'll be pretty happy to keep paying you. I was like, okay.
Danielle Lewis (17:35):
Oh my God, this is amazing.
Madie Muller (17:37):
Well, yeah. So I kind of signed on with them, and I'm completely self-taught on social media, so I haven't done a marketing degree or anything along those lines. I just dove straight in. We signed a contract and I was like, I'll just give it my best shot then. So we've been going doing that for probably eight or nine months now, so they haven't fired me yet, so I must be doing something right. I mean,
Danielle Lewis (18:02):
I think that's the thing about social though. It's very easy to say, I wasn't go to uni for marketing or whatever, but I kind of feel like you have to have a little bit of that in you for social. It literally changes every day if you went to uni and studied. So I think about, so I'm very old when I went to uni, Instagram didn't exist, but it's so imagine and all of my businesses around influencers, social media, blah, blah, and none of that existed when I went to uni. So I kind of feel like one of the keys to, well, anything, any industry is you kind of got to just keep learning and keep adapting and keep experimenting.
Madie Muller (18:49):
Oh, absolutely. And particularly with something like social media, the algorithms change every other week. So the things that I learned this time last year have absolutely, they mean nothing now. Those tactics wouldn't work now. So yeah, it is very much a can keep learning kind of situation.
Danielle Lewis (19:08):
And I think even social media aside, it's probably just a good business owner mindset to have about everything in your business. You have to wear so many hats. Nobody starts a business and they're like, oh, I just happen to be an expert in finance. I happen to be an expert in social media. I happen to be an expert in whatever the industry is that you are already in. Maybe you were an expert in that and that's why you started, but you've got to learn so much. It's probably a good life philosophy to have.
Madie Muller (19:37):
Oh, it's really, really, really, it kind of, again, kind of circles back around to that idea of pivoting. It's not just in the actual business model or whatever that you need to pivot. It's also in the way you learn what you are learning. Genuinely, when I first started the money side of things, the actual bookkeeping and whatever, I was like, I'm just going to wing this. I found out very quickly. It's not something that you need
Danielle Lewis (20:03):
Not a good thing to wing, is it? I've done that too.
Madie Muller (20:06):
Yeah. Oh, goodness. So yeah, I don't know. And you, again, you have to go, okay, well, I can't do this. I can't learn how to do this. My brain is just not wired for numbers, so I'm going to pay someone to do it. And so then you have to be like, okay, how am I going to again get this money? How am I going to make this work? Right? Yeah.
Danielle Lewis (20:26):
And it's an interesting thing to think about too. I think we go, okay, we're starting a new business and then we kind of don't realize how much it costs to start a business. My
Madie Muller (20:35):
God, no.
Danielle Lewis (20:36):
There's all those things like, okay, I kind of need a bookkeeper. Or even if it's not a bookkeeper and it's an accountant just to do the returns or your bass or whatever, it all costs money
Madie Muller (20:49):
And they're all very specialized and there's a reason why we can't do it, and they can, and it's way more money than you kind of think it's going to be,
Danielle Lewis (20:57):
But oh my God, I know. And it is that like, okay, and every time you go, right, I need this person. This person is, okay, cool. Well, how am I going to make more money in my business to support the people I need to run my business?
Madie Muller (21:15):
A lot of my problem at the moment is I'm like, okay, I have a lot of work going at the moment and I'm like, I'm getting to the point where I just feasibly can't deliver it by myself, but I'm not really making enough money to be able to pay someone to do it for me. So I'm in this place where I'm like, okay, does this mean I need to put up my fees? Does it mean what does it mean? How am I going to scale the business?
Danielle Lewis (21:39):
And I think that's such a good topic to put opinion, because I kind of feel like everyone gets to that point where they're like, okay, I started a business as a solo founder, solopreneur, whatever we want to call them. And then I've gone, okay, what is it that I actually offer? Some of it's service based, so it's your time basically, you're selling your time, and then sometimes we do things that are a little bit more scalable, like a course or software or a e-commerce, maybe that's scalable, just depends. There's another whole set of problems. You've got to buy inventory. Oh my god. So I think that is a point in everyone's business where they go, okay, I've kind of hit my ceiling on this current model. What is actually next?
Madie Muller (22:28):
And again, it's one of those moments where it's like, okay, you do have to shift the business model. This is another pivot point where you're like, okay, what I am doing right now, it's fine, it's working, but if I want to get any bigger and pat
Danielle Lewis (22:41):
On the back for getting this far, yeah,
Madie Muller (22:43):
Yeah, yes. But if you want to get any bigger, it's like, okay, this is going to require not just a major shift in thinking, but a major shift in the other way. The business is run, which I think is really scary. And the reason why I haven't made any moves forward in it is because I'm like, okay, but if I put up my prices, is that going to alienate my current clients? What does that mean for the work I already have? What if I do this and it means that everyone hates me and I'm then I put someone on and I suddenly can't pay them anymore. I'm like, that was, wow. That was a Whirlpool. All my anxieties just really came out of my mouth.
Danielle Lewis (23:24):
So this is now a therapy session.
Madie Muller (23:25):
Yeah, exactly.
Danielle Lewis (23:27):
But it's so true. And ironically, I just listened to a podcast on this very topic. There
Madie Muller (23:34):
You go.
Danielle Lewis (23:34):
And I'm going to share it with you, and if we even had show notes, I'd put this in them. I really need to get onto my show notes. That's another thing on my to-do list. But yeah, so about yes, A, raising your prices, B, then what products you can actually have in conjunction with your services. So I mean, the interesting thing is you create this podcast, right? All I do is show up record, but then you are the person that actually edits it, gets it online, does all of the things. I kind of feel like there's probably people listening in right now who don't have a podcast for their business, and you and I are sitting here going, ah, it's so easy. Everyone could do it, but everyone else is like, are you crazy people? You have no idea where to start. And so then it's like, do you have a course on podcasting? And what are those things that you can add into your business that are a little bit more scalable in conjunction with maybe raising your prices that over time start to stack up?
Madie Muller (24:42):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think for me, I kind of get stuck in this head space of being like, what else can I offer? It was almost just this moment where I'm like, I've got no creativity left. I have no idea what other services are products to offer, but that's a really good idea. I'm going
Danielle Lewis (25:01):
To steal. Totally, totally. I actually thought of it. I want to do a course to show people how easy it is to start a business because so many people I talk to are like, I dunno what to do registering business same. And I'm like, the only thing that matters when you start a business is making money and getting customers. And literally with platforms like Squarespace and stuff, you could have a website up and running today, and I don't think people realize that you could start a business. I have air quotes of people listening in literally in and afternoon. It doesn't have to be crazy complicated. Absolutely not.
Madie Muller (25:40):
What, 24 hours for the business name to be registered? It's 80 bucks or something. Yeah, it's nothing.
Danielle Lewis (25:45):
Exactly. And I'm like, I think it's the same for podcasts. And so when I thought about the starting a business course, I was like, you should do one for podcasting to show people how easy it is. Literally, podcasting in my opinion, is as easy as having a meeting because all I do is I sit on Zoom and I talk to people.
Madie Muller (26:06):
Yeah, yeah. Almost you are almost just kind of guiding the conversation even you just sit back and
Danielle Lewis (26:12):
I contribute nothing. I'm like, no one wants to hear from me anymore. Not about
Madie Muller (26:16):
Me. I listen to the episodes. I know the truth.
Danielle Lewis (26:22):
But that's really interesting. I think about there's got to be so many people listening in right now who are in the same boat, who are kind of going, oh my God, I feel like I literally cannot take on anymore where to from here. So that kind of idea of how can I teach people who maybe don't want to pay for my services, how to DIY. That's interesting. And also even so, it's almost like if you go, okay, I want to put my prices up to X or my next client, I'll do that. So I now take on no more clients unless they're at double my rate. So just in case you have any attrition of current clients, then any new one is already on the new pricing model. So that can be a way to slowly move to it as well.
Madie Muller (27:15):
That makes a lot of sense. And I don't, I've actually just put the prices up for the studio itself, almost double. It was a pretty large amount, and I had one person email me and be like, oh, look, I totally understand why you're doing it. Is there any chance we can stay at the old price? Because I just couldn't afford it at the new one. I was like, of course, I'll make that work. Literally, all of the other emails I got about it were people being like, oh my God, congratulations. You really needed to put your prices up. I'm like,
Danielle Lewis (27:45):
Everyone knew they were getting a good deal.
Madie Muller (27:47):
Yes, they did.
Danielle Lewis (27:50):
Oh, that is so good.
Madie Muller (27:52):
I've got proof that I should do it. But yeah.
Danielle Lewis (27:55):
Isn't it funny though, all of the things you said, which is like, what if people hate me? What if everyone leaves or if this, everyone was like, no, it's fine.
Madie Muller (28:03):
Yeah, literally it's
Danielle Lewis (28:04):
Like we're our own worst enemy.
Madie Muller (28:06):
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Particularly when it comes to business and you have all those responsibilities, you do just get in this whole, this whole spiral of what if this means I can't pay for things, or what if this means I have to, not that I have a team, but what if it means I have to fire somebody or whatever.
Danielle Lewis (28:23):
And I think that that's like you kind of mentioned the team thing as well, that is what holds you back from getting help because you're like, yeah, what if I get to a point where I can't pay for them anymore and then I've promised this person work or whatever? I found a really good one for that is freelancers. So before you bring on a full-time person, kind of go, okay, I'm willing to take a risk on five, 10 hours a week, a month, whatever it is, just to get a little bit of help, and then while you're building up a bit of a bank and what have you, and then increase that and increase that rather than bringing on someone where, yeah, you're like, oh my God, I'm responsible for their whole livelihood. What if this doesn't work out?
Madie Muller (29:04):
Oh, that's actually, I have thought about that as well, and then I've kind of been like, oh, I don't know if it's a good idea. I'm so stupid. But no, you're right. I think as you were kind of speaking, I was like, I think my thing mom has been such a blessing to me because she's been able to give me so much insight. So she ran her own consultancy. She wasn't part of one of the big four or whatever. She had her own for a really long time, 10 or 15 years. And so I've grown up watching her have her own business, and that's been a blessing in a lot of ways. And then the flip side of that is I've also seen all of the bad sides. I've seen her take on staff for work, seen the work run out, and her have to put staff off, for example. And so it's always been this kind of, I'm like, oh, I've seen, not worst case, but I've seen bad things happen and Yeah, yeah, exactly. You get really scared of replicating that through no fault of anyone. It's just the way business works really. Yeah.
Danielle Lewis (30:04):
I mean, oh, look, I'm not going to lie. So I have been in that position even with Covid. We had like, oh my God, I can't even remember how big the Scrunch team was at the start of covid, and we did everything we could to hold onto everybody, and they just came a point where we had to let a few people go, and it was horrific. You just feel like the worst person on the planet, and sometimes employees aren't very understanding, and I get that it's not their job to be understanding of you as a business owner, but it is so it's so hard to be able to have to share that news with them when as a business owner, you never want things to go bad. You never want a slow month or a couple of months, or you never want a global pandemic to happen. No.
Madie Muller (30:53):
Well see. I
Danielle Lewis (30:53):
Think it's real.
Madie Muller (30:54):
Yeah, really. I know there's always a problem. There's always something to solve in business, but I think the pandemic was such a really specific situation because it's like everyone's being laid off. There is no work for anybody, and you don't want to contribute to it, but you don't have any work either. And I think there can be a real, not always, but there can be a disconnect between an employee and an employer, and that's not because of the dynamic that is specific to your relationship with your employees. I think it's just a general, employees are wary of their bosses, they're wary of their managers, they're wary of business owners. They think that we have a fuck ton of money where it's like, I haven't money
Danielle Lewis (31:34):
A million dollars in my bank account
Madie Muller (31:36):
Money. Literally, I'm like, I'm making way less money than any of my friends are, and they think that just because I own a business, so that really translate as well to employees. Again, all of the people I know along here are like, no, my salary is less than my employees. Like, whatcha doing? Why are we even in business then?
Danielle Lewis (31:56):
Yeah. Oh, totally. And I think the thing too where we've got to go, okay, there is going to be a point where I cap out on the amount of stuff I can do, and I have to make that decision. Do I want to figure out how to make this business scale beyond me? Well, should I go and get a bloody job?
Madie Muller (32:15):
And I think there's no shame in doing that. I think a lot of people assume that if an entrepreneur or a founder leaves the business and goes back to being a PYG, then the business must have failed. It's like, no, that's not at all what happens. You just get to a point where you're like, I don't need the stress of this anymore. I've done what I wanted to do, and I feel like I can go back or I feel like I want to go back. Yeah. I don't know. There shouldn't be any shame in being a business wasn't for me.
Danielle Lewis (32:45):
Totally. And I think that the thing people forget there as well is, so when you're a business owner, you are actually in 10 different jobs.
Madie Muller (32:52):
So
Danielle Lewis (32:53):
Sometimes people make the decision just because they want to go back to what they're good at. They're actually like, you know what? I'm an awesome ops person, or I'm an awesome creative, or I'm an awesome this. It's like I want a job that pays me just to do what I'm great at and what I love. I don't want 10 jobs that I don't like for less money.
Madie Muller (33:13):
Oh, absolutely. I remember there was one kind of moment at the beginning I was like, okay, before I brought on a bookkeeper, I was like, okay, I'm going to do my best and I'm going to do it on Friday morning. And mom was like, look, I get you want to do it during work hours, but it's not really work. It's actually just an extra added job that business owners have. It's not billable hours, so you can't do it during billable hours. You can, obviously, it's not a hard and fast rule, but it's kind of like you've, it's a
Danielle Lewis (33:40):
Good philosophy to get in the mindset of I like that. Yeah.
Madie Muller (33:43):
Yeah. Well, I recently, oh God, kind of my cousin, she was working for a company and the owner of the company just kind of got to this point where she was like, I don't really want to do this anymore. And she was so over it that she just said to my cousin, she was like, look, I'm going to sign this business over to you, literally $0. She was just like, I'm just signing it over. And so my cousin's now running this company just because the business owner, she'd been doing it for 20 years. It was just like, I just don't really feel like it anymore. I don't know. Good honor, really. If I worked in a company for 20 years, I'd be like, give me my money, but yeah,
Danielle Lewis (34:26):
Yeah, exactly. Same. I'd be like, ah, where's my billion dollars at the end?
Madie Muller (34:30):
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Danielle Lewis (34:32):
But it's interesting that fully circled back to find the joy and maybe sometimes we need to be okay with, oh my God, and full circle. Sometimes the plan doesn't pan out and that's okay. And us as business owners, we are allowed to change our mind, change our products, change our rates, leave. We kind of did create this monster. If we want to change the way it looks, then we're the only ones that can actually do it.
Madie Muller (35:05):
Oh, absolutely. And I feel like most of the things I've talked about today have been really negative, but I think that's the real, it's kind of reality, isn't it? Right. Totally. Totally. It's negative. It's just the reality. But I think the real joy in a business is you are at the helm. You do kind of get to a point where you realize you've created a monster, you're on a hamster wheel, but you also, because you created it, you're like, well, I can do what I want. If I'm going to change the business, then that's up to me. I get to do that. I think that's a real privilege rather than a responsibility.
Danielle Lewis (35:40):
Totally. And it's so funny, I was just having the, I know that at the start I was like, I've got this new idea that I want to play with,
Madie Muller (35:47):
But
Danielle Lewis (35:47):
I'm like, also, what's the harm in, okay, if it's five o'clock and I'm supposed to be clocked off for the day, well then that's what I'm going to experiment with that idea in my own time, because I am lack my own time as a business designer too, apparently.
Madie Muller (36:03):
Yeah, that's a whole other,
Danielle Lewis (36:05):
That's all the podcast. Oh my God, I love it so much. Okay, Maddie, you have been absolutely incredible. Do you have one last final piece of wisdom for our Spark community? Anyone that might be in those early days of starting a business for themselves and maybe wondering what the hell they did? Any lesson that you've learned or piece of wisdom to help people keep going?
Madie Muller (36:32):
I think about this every single time I hear this question, and my answer is, I think it's just about having self-awareness. So I think you just have to be willing to look around you, but also look inside yourself and be like, what am I feeling? What is the reality of this situation? Do I need to go forward with it? Do I need to take a step back? Do I need to get myself out of it completely? Whatever it kind of is. I feel like it's one of those things. Yeah, you just have to, can't lie to yourself about what's going on and about your business. You have to be honest, because otherwise that's where mistakes are made. That is how you go broke. So no one wants that.
Danielle Lewis (37:16):
I love it. You're the best. Maddie, thank you so much for being on the other side of Spark TV
Madie Muller (37:23):
Today. It's been so
Danielle Lewis (37:24):
Good to chat to you. I'm glad we finally made time,
Madie Muller (37:27):
So I, this is great. Now, every time I hear an episode, I'm going to be like, wow, I totally get the pressure of being the guest.
Danielle Lewis (37:36):
So good. Awesome. Thanks for joining us, Maddie.
Madie Muller (37:40):
Thanks everyone. Bye.
