#awinewith Loren Bousfield: how to build a brand that stands out when everything looks the same
✨ Thank you to IP Australia for supporting the SPARK podcast and women in business ✨
Loren Bousfield lost her job in COVID, spent two weeks crying on the floor, then built Gemini Creative Studio, a branding and design agency on a mission to burn the beige. Six years on, she's helped hundreds of women build brands as bold as they are. In this episode she shares how she went from a $150 logo to a structured, boundaried business, when to invest in branding (and when not to), and why messy action beats perfect planning every time.
Why does every brand look the same right now?
Loren's whole philosophy started with being called too much. "I have been called too much my entire life. Too opinionated, too bold, too intense. For years I always used to shrink to be more palatable. Then I kind of realised, the people who think I'm too much just aren't my people anyway." Her answer to the sea of beige, sage green and cursive fonts on social media: "I own it, so you can own it." If your brand doesn't feel like you, it's very hard to show up for it every day.
Starting a business to survive, not from a grand vision
Gemini Creative Studio didn't begin with entrepreneurial ambition. "The way I started my business wasn't some grand vision. It started because I had to survive." When COVID took her corporate job, the safety she'd been promised her whole life vanished with it. Her husband's response: let's go all in for six months. Her first client came from a Facebook group and paid $150 for a logo ("which makes my heart and soul burn right now"). The early days of design-by-Facebook-committee taught her the real lesson: processes and boundaries are what save your sanity, your pricing and your business.
When should you actually invest in branding?
The brand designer's honest answer: not first. From brand new to about 18 months in, test everything, talk to people and get clients, because traction matters more than a logo. "Invest in strategy before anything visual. You want to know what your messaging is, your positioning, what your personality is, your tone of voice." Then, around three to five years in, go all in on the rebrand, when you actually know who you are and a strategist can pull something magnificent out of you.
Treat everything as data, not failure
Five people bought your course instead of twenty? That's not a verdict on you, it's information. "What is it that, in your head, you're telling yourself that you failed? Take everything as data and information, and just make it better." Loren credits six years of survival to exactly that: experimenting with everything, keeping what works and feels good, ditching what doesn't, even if it makes money. And the tip she'd give anyone: build your email list, because you don't own your Instagram data.
Loren's one piece of advice for women in business
"Just start. Seriously, you don't need permission, you don't need that perfect website, you don't need a business plan, or a logo, or 10,000 followers, you just need to start. Start small. Your too much is your differentiation. Build a business that you want. Imposter syndrome never goes away. And find your people. Overall, messy action beats perfection planning every single time."
Meet Loren, Founder of Gemini Creative Studio
Loren Bousfield is the Founder of Gemini Creative Studio, a branding and design agency for the rule-breakers, the misfits and the ones with something to say. A brand strategist and designer who has worked with over 200 business owners, won multiple awards and taught branding at the University of Newcastle, Loren helps women ditch the beige and build brands that feel like coming home: authentic, strategic and impossible to ignore.
You can find her here:
Full transcript
Danielle: There we go! Loren, welcome to Spark TV! It's so good to have you here!
Loren: So good to be here, thank you so much, Danielle.
Danielle: I'm so excited, because you've been in my world for a little while. I've been stalking you, looking at all the things, reading your articles, following you on social media, you know, you've written great stuff for Spark as well, so I'm so excited to actually get to have an actual chat with you.
Loren: Yeah, I'm really excited too. I think I've been in your world for, like, 2 years now, and I'm like, you know what, it's time. It's time for me to actually have a face-to-face with Danielle.
Danielle: Yes! This is so good, and on the podcast as well, where we've got time, we can delve into the stuff, that is so good. So let's start out by telling everyone who you are and what you do.
Loren: Yeah, so, I'm Loren. I own Gemini Creative Studio, which is a branding and design agency, and we basically exist to burn the beige and to own the too much. We want to be the ones who made branding feel like an act of rebellion, liberation, and art. So we're the creatives who blend chaos with clarity, and made it all look effing iconic. I don't know if I can swear, so it's almost like effing iconic.
Danielle: You can very much swear here, we encourage it.
Loren: Amazing. So, yeah, in a nutshell, that is what I do.
Danielle: I love it so much, because I'm not gonna lie to you, especially on social media, everything feels the same, you know? And I know we kind of look to other people for inspiration, but I feel like sometimes we've gotten lost in this sea of sameness. And I think for us as individual business owners, it also kind of makes it hard for us to, like, love our own brand and show up every day if we don't own it, and it's not us.
Loren: Absolutely, and this is, I think, my whole messaging now. And I don't know about you, but I have been called too much my entire life. Too opinionated, too bold, too intense. And I think for years, I always used to shrink to be more palatable, so then people would think I'm more professional, or like me more, you know? Then I kind of realised, the people who think I'm too much just aren't my people anyway. The women who I work with, who resonate with that energy, they're also the ones that feel like they're too much. So, I own it, so you can own it, you know, and that becomes my entire brand and philosophy. And I hope that other people are seeing that too, because you're right. Everything out there is, like, beige and sage green and creams and cursive fonts, and I'm not gonna take that away from it, because it's beautiful. But come on, guys, have a personality.
Danielle: Oh my god, it is so true. I just love it. If you're too much, you're in the right place.
Loren: Yeah, exactly. That's exactly right. Your too much energy is what I love and thrive on.
Danielle: Oh my god, that is so good. So how did you even get into this?
Loren: Oh my gosh, so I've been in business now for 6 years in July.
Danielle: Wow, 6 years? You've done some time!
Loren: I've done some time. And honestly, the way I started my business wasn't some grand vision or, you know, entrepreneurial ambition. It started because I had to survive. So, like a lot of people, I lost my job through COVID.
Danielle: Oh, wow.
Loren: Yeah, I spent 2 weeks on the floor crying. Genuinely.
Danielle: Get it out.
Loren: It's because my entire worldview just shattered, right? I'd been told my entire life that stability and safety came from a corporate job. That's what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to go to uni, get a degree, get the job, climb the ladder, retire with a full super account, and that was the path. But then, I thought I was doing that, and then COVID hit, and that safety kind of just vanished. So I had this moment of, okay, well, what do I do now? And no one was hiring, the world was shut down, I had these skills, I had the experience, and I needed to pay bills. So then I had a chat with my husband, and he was like, fuck it, let's just go all in. You know, we'll give it 6 months and see if we can make this freelance thing work. And that was 6 years ago. So at first, it was pure survival mode. You know, take a client, charge whatever they'll pay, keep the lights on type of thing. But then along the way, it changed, and it became a mission.
Danielle: Wow. I also love the idea that, you know, you didn't wake up one day and have it all figured out, you know? I love that, because I was the same, charge someone what they'll pay, like, that was exactly how I started. Will you pay me money? Then I will do this work.
Loren: Yeah, that's exactly how it was.
Danielle: Yeah, and I think some people look at themselves and where they're at in business, and they think, why don't I have everything figured out yet? But it is such a path. What are those stages that you went through? How did you figure it all out?
Loren: Literally, I feel like, you know, the stages of grief, right? It was like that. I started off incredibly depressed, incredibly sad. And then I was, like, so angry, because I was like, why me? Why did this happen to me? I worked so hard. And then I kind of went into that denial of, like, oh my god, maybe I don't have the skills, or maybe the world isn't gonna go back to normal, and all this kind of stuff. And really, I still don't know everything, I still don't have everything figured out. I'm literally learning every single day. Some days I know exactly what I'm doing, and other days, I still throw shit at the wall and hope it sticks. Honestly, it's just a journey, and I think it's so deeply personal that as much as I can give you my advice, or my journey, I think it's all down to your choices, and what you do, right? Because 6 years in business is not easy. But it's not the hardest thing in the world either.
Danielle: It's so true, and I just love that you say that. You know, I do get a little tired of the courses and the rhetoric on Instagram that is, if you just follow these three steps, your life will change and you'll be a billionaire tomorrow. And I know I rant a lot about that on this podcast, but it's so true, because your story is the same as my story, which is the same as everyone else's story, which is, we are all here figuring it out, and we are all testing, learning. Some of it works for some of us, some of it doesn't work for others. Sometimes it works, but you don't like it, and you're like, this is great, and I could make money doing this, but it sucks.
Loren: Yeah, no joke. You can go balls to the wall with some things, and be like, yep, this is what I love to do, and it doesn't work. Or it's the opposite, and you're doing what everybody else is doing, and what these Instagram people are telling you to do, and you're like, yeah, it makes money, but you hate everything. And then we want to burn it down, you know, it's just not worth it at that point.
Danielle: Well, and I kind of figure too, like, business becomes your life. As much as we say, you know, work-life balance, protect your energy, have a personal life, all the things, haha! It just doesn't happen all the time. It's in your brain every single second of every day, even when you are lying on the massage table, getting a massage. Actually, especially then.
Loren: It is especially then, oh my gosh, I'm so glad that you said that, because it's so true. I try really hard to switch off when I'm getting a massage, but then I'm like, this, that... it's ridiculous.
Danielle: I know, it's worse, because it's like, now I finally have some time to think, and then I'm like, oh great, now I can take over the world!
Loren: Exactly. Oh my gosh, that's so funny.
Danielle: Oh, it's so true. So how did you, you know, you talk about being super scrappy, taking anything in the early days. How did you get your first clients to start the path journey business? Whatever I'm trying to say.
Loren: Yeah, so Facebook groups were a great place. I'm pretty sure it was the Like-Minded Bitches Drinking Wine group.
Danielle: Nice!
Loren: Yeah, and I had put a post up there saying, hey, I'm new, I'm scared, I'm super vulnerable, I just don't know what I'm doing, this is what I want to be doing, can anybody offer some advice? And I do remember this one beautiful lady, who I still talk to, commented and said, hey, I'm just gonna private message you if that's okay. And then she messaged me, she's a marketer, and she was just like, first things first, I just want to say congratulations for starting. That's the hardest part. You've got so much support, this is what you do. And I just remember being so unbelievably grateful that somebody just messaged me and was like, you've got this. So basically, I went out there, and I was like, hey, I'm creating logos. And I got my first client, and I think she spent $150. Which makes my heart and soul burn right now.
Danielle: I get it.
Loren: So yeah, $150, I was like, I'll take it, because it just means I'm making money doing what I'm doing.
Danielle: I am now legit. Someone paid me for a thing.
Loren: Exactly right. So, I did that, and then... I mean, look, there were so many learning curves along the way.
Danielle: Number one, don't ever undercharge like that.
Loren: Yep. Never. And maintain your boundaries. Have boundaries to begin with. I just remember, though, those Facebook groups are a love-hate thing, because as much as it started out really well, because people were paying such low prices, like $150 for a logo, for example, they would go... okay, I would give them 3 or 4 different options, and they would take it to the group, and hundreds of people would comment on it, and the process was just horrific, because it became like a personal attack on the designer.
Danielle: Wow.
Loren: Yeah, so I had to create processes, and maintain some boundaries. And so now, obviously, I don't charge $150 for anything, but I have a very clear, structured process now, so then we go through the whole thing, and everybody's happy. Nobody has to take it offline and go ask their partner, or their uncle, or their mother, or whatever about anything.
Danielle: I love that, because processes are not sexy. But they're kind of the thing that, like, save your sanity and save your business. When you said, okay, this should not be a jury of Facebook deciding on my design skills, how did you start to move clients to a process? What was that like?
Loren: Yeah, so basically, I just spent a lot of time looking at other designers and what they were doing. So other designers would share their processes on their email lists, or on their socials, for other designers. And I just, honestly, spent a lot of time doomscrolling, and just learning, and observing. We call it research! Research, sorry.
Danielle: Yeah. Research!
Loren: And yeah, so basically I was just kind of pulling from different spaces, so it was very messy and chaotic to begin with, don't get me wrong. I didn't have a smooth process like I do now. It was very much bits of everything. But I like that I did that, because it just meant that I created what I have now from all my learnings. I mean, it was chaotic. But I thrive on chaos, so it's okay. My clients, not so much.
Danielle: I know, I thrive on chaos too. I think that's a business owner trait.
Loren: I always say to people that I'm chaos personified.
Danielle: If it works, it works, that's what I say.
Loren: Exactly, exactly.
Danielle: I do love it, though, because it's interesting, especially now, we do live in a time where you can really find the answer to your question, you know? I love that you got your first processes from other designers that were just happy to help and share their knowledge, and then, as you say, messy, chaotic, and then you kind of find the bits you like, trash the bits you don't like, and that's what forms your process as you grow as a business and a business owner.
Loren: Yeah, 100%. I feel like that's the only way you can do it, really, because no one's processes or systems look the same. So just going back to that Instagram comment that you made, where they're like, oh, follow this exact blueprint and you'll make a billion dollars. If that was the case, why aren't we all billionaires? So I hate those things, because it also puts this pressure on business owners, as if women don't have enough pressure as it is. And now we're adding this extra pressure of, if I'm not doing it this way, then I'm not good enough, or I'm not doing it right, and that's just really unfair. I just think, take what you can from those types of posts, take what resonates with you, and then ditch everything else and create something that's wholly yours. And you'll find that it actually works.
Danielle: Yeah, and I love, when I learnt the idea of continual improvement, it's like, even if you shipped the world's most perfect process, product, service, whatever, today, tomorrow it's out of date.
Loren: Correct, yeah.
Danielle: You know, so you just need to get used to the idea that nothing's perfect, and that you will always be improving. And I love your comment as well, to just take the pressure off, because, well, and yes, half, I think, of our pressure is self-inflicted, but it is true, you know, like, we don't need any more pressure on ourselves. If we start to get used to the idea that, you know, do what we can today, learn more, make it better.
Loren: 100%, that's all we can ask for, right? Don't put too much pressure on yourself, otherwise what's the point? We also just can't hustle 24-7 either.
Danielle: I tried, and it doesn't work.
Loren: I have burnt out, and it's just not worth it. You know, we need to be building a business that supports the life that you actually want to live. That's the whole goal, right?
Danielle: That's kind of the point, right? Like, what are you doing if you're not also having a life?
Loren: You might as well just go to sleep and just not wake up, because...
Danielle: Yeah, totally! Okay, this is getting depressing. No, it's just so true, though. So, okay, so how have you survived 6 years in business? You know, we talk about an idea of balance, not putting pressure on ourselves, not hustling 24-7, and creating a business that does support the life that you want. How have you actually made sure that you personally have survived the 6 years?
Loren: I think, honestly, staying motivated would be by connecting back to my why consistently. I also think that motivation as a word is overrated, because I don't wake up motivated every day.
Danielle: Same.
Loren: You know, some days I'm really tired, some days I don't want to work, and that's so fine, because I've built a business so that I don't need to be motivated 24-7 to keep it. But I think what keeps me engaged, really, is community. So, exactly what we're doing right now, speaking to other people in the industry, having great partnerships and connections, talking to other women in business. That energy is infectious, so it makes me feel connected to my why again. Learning new shit, because I get bored really easily, so picking up new hobbies and shiny new things, like, dude, I need to keep my brain engaged, right? And I think just also rebelling over the hustle culture. So every time I see someone promoting this grind of, like, 24-7 or you're not serious, I'm more motivated to prove that you can build a successful business without it. So I think it's the community, reconnecting to my why. I think those are the things that have gotten me to where I am and continue to push me.
Danielle: Yeah, I love that. I totally agree. I think that you really have to, in business, not forget why you started, or why you're working for every dollar, and what the end game is. And I do love the anti-hustle culture sentiment as well. I think you can be totally ambitious, totally driven, and not kill yourself in the process.
Loren: 100%. And, I mean, this goes on a whole different kind of conversation, but it's these societal pressures that we have, and this conditioning that we have, that we have to hustle, we have to have this masculine energy all the time. As women, that does not work for us, right? We're allowed to be ambitious, and we're allowed to work hard without this masculine energy of hustle, hustle, hustle that we've been conditioned to in a corporate environment. So, we have the ability to build our own businesses the way we want to. If we're not feeling it that day, we're allowed to just shut our laptop and go, fuck this, and spend the day on the beach instead. I don't know about you, but my motivation comes in waves and at different times of the day. So I'm a night owl. Today I have my blinds open, but all day yesterday, I decided to trick my brain. I closed everything, made it dark...
Danielle: I love this!
Loren: It's nighttime, and I was really productive yesterday, because I tricked my brain into believing it's nighttime, right? So that's the thing, I can do things like that, because it matches the energy that I have that day. So I just think, if you're listening to your body, and what your body is saying, and not listening to these people that say you have to hustle, hustle, hustle, I think you'll find that business becomes easier for you, and you become way more in flow after that.
Danielle: Yeah, and I also think that we forget that there is actually value in the rest, you know? Like, the going to the beach, or, I know we were making the joke about the massage, but when you do actually stop and get time to think... because the other thing is, is that there's no glory in doing so much of the wrong stuff. So if you don't kind of stop and reflect and plan and strategise, you can find yourself, yeah, sure, you're up working till, like, midnight every night, but if you're doing the wrong thing, your business isn't gonna grow.
Loren: Yeah, 100%.
Danielle: So sometimes you do need that perspective to actually stop. It's funny, I stole it from my husband, but he's like, you need a CEO day. My thinking time's in the bath, and he was like, go have a bath, because you need to actually think about your business, not just do the to-do list. And it's so true, like, you actually need thinking time.
Loren: Yeah, absolutely you do. Otherwise, it's too hard to be constantly in your business. You need a moment where you can just separate yourself and actually think about it. And I think another thing as well is being okay with the failure aspect. You don't have that space to think when you go, go, go, go, go, and you see a failure, and you get upset, and you don't actually acknowledge it or learn from it. So having that space where you go, okay, I'm having a bath now, I'm gonna sit and think about my business. Okay, if I failed at this, why did I fail at that? You know, take it as a learning opportunity, take everything as data and information, and just make it better.
Danielle: Yeah, I love that so much. I love it as well because, you know, failure is such a funny word, it's so loaded, right? And we all just go, oh my god, I can't handle this if I failed. It's like it has become a reflection of you as a person.
Loren: But the other thing is, is if you don't acknowledge something hasn't worked...
Danielle: Like, keeping on doing the thing that's not working is a way bigger failure than going, that didn't work, I'm not gonna do it anymore, I'm gonna try something else.
Loren: Yeah, exactly, and you come to resent it. Just say you're super passionate about, you know, running a course, and then you've done it and it failed. But what's failure mean to you? Did, like, 5 people buy it and you were hoping 20 people bought it? Is that a failure? You know what I mean? What is it that, in your head, you're telling yourself that you failed? So it's just about reassessing and changing the mindset, I think. Because I think mindset's a massive thing.
Danielle: Oh my god, I love that so much. I was listening to this woman on a podcast the other day, and she was talking about how in the very first course that she invented, one person showed up. But then, the next one, five people showed up, and then 10, and now she's served, like, 10,000 students or something crazy. But if it was me, I'd be like, oh my god, one person came, this is it, I'm cancelling everything and burning my business to the ground.
Loren: It's so funny, because I'm the same as you.
Danielle: I'd be like, this is wildly embarrassing, I'm gonna go to bed now.
Loren: 100%.
Danielle: But it's so true, and it was interesting, she's like, so now we have data. Okay, well, how many people actually saw my lead magnet, so therefore, how many converted? So, therefore, I got one student. Okay, what do I have to do differently next time? And I was like, oh yeah, that's called running a business!
Loren: Yeah, exactly. Literally, it's always about data. Everything is data, everything's an experimentation. I think, honestly, it's probably what's gotten me here to where I am now, too. It's just experimenting with everything, taking what I like and what works, ditching what doesn't, or what doesn't feel good, even if it does work, and then just growing, and learning, and just growing, and growing, and growing.
Danielle: Yeah, I love that. I've had to give myself a pep talk this week about the data. I've not been being very good at tracking all of the metrics, so I'm like, I need to get better at, like, a monthly practice of doing it.
Loren: Yeah, absolutely. I definitely agree with that. I was very much like that before, I was just like, I just don't care. I don't want to look at it. I don't care about the metrics. But now I'm like, no, no, if I want to make money, I have to know the metrics.
Danielle: Yeah, it's so true, though, isn't it? And, you know, I think it's important to note that you don't have to track everything. It's like, what's the important stuff, you know?
Loren: Absolutely. Align it with your goals. If your goal is to get another thousand people on Instagram to follow you that month, then obviously you've got to track the engagement and the views and things like that. But if it's not your goal at all, then don't worry about it.
Danielle: Totally, oh my god. Because also, and I know I always bag Instagram, even though it's, like, one of my main channels, but if it doesn't make you money, if your goal is to make money, don't worry about followers on Instagram. Track the thing that is important to you. I love that you said that. What's important to you, that's the thing you've got to track the metrics around.
Loren: Absolutely. And I don't own the data from Instagram.
Danielle: That has got to be, like, the best tip for anyone listening. Email lists.
Loren: Oh yeah, absolutely. That's the one thing I learned really early on in business. Creating a really solid lead magnet, and getting people into your list so you can nurture them and create a community.
Danielle: Yeah, and that's really interesting, like, an interesting evolution from reaching out to people in a Facebook group, to then going, right, I'm in control of my own marketing, create a lead magnet, get them on the email list, create a funnel. Oh my god, now my business works for me.
Loren: Yeah, exactly. It's just such a weird feeling.
Danielle: It's so good, though!
Loren: Oh, it's so good. It's so good when you see something work, like, you're like, yes, I did that!
Danielle: Oh my god, I love it, I love it. So, obviously, going back to being a branding and web designer, we've got women in business listening now, and obviously we want to be iconic, obviously we want to be true and authentic to ourselves. If someone was going into a brand refresh or, you know, just starting to think about that, what would be some tips that you would have for them for getting started?
Loren: I think it's just, like, start small. You don't need to do everything all at once, you know? If you're at the beginning, you don't need to just quit your job tomorrow and go full in on your side hustle. I just think, initially, test everything, test your offers, get your first few clients, and then scale. If you're looking at rebranding specifically, you need to see where you are on the spectrum and what your goals are. It always comes down to your goals and what you actually want. So, if you're very new in business, I would say between absolutely new to 18 months in, I wouldn't focus too much on the branding initially. I would just focus on what's going to work for you. Testing, and then getting a few clients in, talking to people, market research. That is way more important. And then from there, I would say, okay, invest in strategy stuff before anything visual. So, you want to know what your messaging is, your positioning, what your personality is, your tone of voice, all that really important, juicy stuff. That will actually help you scale more. And then when you're ready, I would say 3-5 years in, you can go full in on a rebrand. Now, I'm not saying don't do branding initially, because it is still really important to have the visual and everything great, but if you're on an incredibly tight budget, not just money, but time-wise as well, whatever currency you're looking at, I would say just focus on testing. Test, test, test, test.
Danielle: Start small.
Loren: And then grow from there. That's what I would say to people, yeah.
Danielle: Look, I really appreciate you saying that, too, because sometimes you look at people and you think, wow, that is such a shit website and crappy brand, but they are killing it? Because it's like their offer and their messaging just resonates with people so hard. And I just think you need to get to that point, like, you need to figure out who you are, what you stand for, what the transformation is that you offer people, what that value is. And you're right, like, get your tone of voice, figure out how you connect with people. Because kind of when you nail that and start to see traction, then it's like, yeah, that's the brand that I want to invest in making better and gorgeous and scalable. Versus, like we said earlier, things do change, you know, and especially in the early days where you are testing and experimenting. I can't tell you how many lead magnets that I've made that don't exist anywhere anymore. And even this year, like, so Spark, we're also in our sixth year, and even literally this year, I was like, you know, we've really changed the way we talk about things, we've changed the cadence in the business, so I was like, well, my lead magnets don't make sense anymore. So I had to change all of that. So you do, you're always constantly refreshing. So I do love that you said, kind of figure that out before you really go hardcore into it.
Loren: And look, a brand strategist would absolutely help you in terms of nailing all of that, but if you're coming in and not really knowing anything about who you are or what your business represents, it's not just hard for that brand strategist, it's hard for you to get on board with anything, right? Because you don't know yet what feels good. Once you've done a little bit of time, you'll understand who you are, what you want as a business, and then a brand strategist can come in and go, okay, let's really pull this out of you and make something magnificent, you know?
Danielle: Yeah. Oh, I love that so much. Oh my god, I could talk to you all day, but I always love to wrap up these podcasts with one last piece of advice. So, reflecting on your time in business, what would be a piece of advice that you would give to another woman on her business journey?
Loren: Just start. Seriously, you don't need permission, you don't need that perfect website, you don't need a business plan, or a logo, or 10,000 followers, you just need to start. I think, as I mentioned, you need to start small. Your too much is your differentiation. Build a business that you want. Imposter syndrome never goes away. And find your people. I think those are the key points, I would say. But yeah, I think overall, just messy action beats perfection planning every single time.
Danielle: Oh, Loren, you are incredible. Thank you so much for being here and sharing your journey and your story and your wisdom with the Spark community.
Loren: Thank you so much for having me!
