#awinewith Kirsty Jackson
MEET Kirsty
Kirsty is the co-founder of Freelancing Gems, You can find them here:
Transcript
Danielle Lewis (00:06):
First day.
Kirsty Jackson (00:08):
Hello.
Danielle Lewis (00:08):
Thank you so much for being here on Spark tv. I'm so excited to have you here.
Kirsty Jackson (00:14):
Thank you. Thank you for the invitation. It's very exciting.
Danielle Lewis (00:17):
It's so good. We have known each other for, oh my God, in various walks of life, I want to say, because we went to the same high school, right?
Kirsty Jackson (00:26):
Yep. Yep.
Danielle Lewis (00:28):
This is insane. This is insane. So I'm so excited to share your story because I love that paths cross over the years. And now here we are again on the same mission to do great things for women in business. So I am stoked to have you here. Let's just start out by telling the fabulous folk who you are and what you do.
Kirsty Jackson (00:51):
Absolutely. So I'm Kirsty Jackson of Freelancing Gems, and we are on a mission to see more women access the career of their dreams. So it's not a small feat. We know that we have a huge mission ahead of us, but together with my co-founder, Floor Madden, we are deeply passionate about closing the gender pay gap for women in consulting and for women broadly. So that sustains us.
Danielle Lewis (01:20):
I love it. Why women? Why do you love us? What's the go? How did you actually get into this?
Kirsty Jackson (01:26):
It's interesting. I think I started my career working with a very strong female leader, and I think that shaped a lot of my experience in business, and I moved on from that into probably less supportive working environments for women. And so that was quite very diplomatic.
(01:50):
It told this story a few times, so I know a diplomatic way to deliver it. I think that that was quite jarring of an experience, and I hadn't been exposed to that before. And so I didn't just go into business with the expectation that, oh, this is how women are meant to be treated in the workplace. I had something different. And so I think that's where that passion probably started from, that I knew it wasn't meant to be this way and that I had to be different for women. And I think then since then, in a few of my other positions, I had the opportunity, or I was the first woman on the executive team, the first woman in the workplace to take maternity leave in marketing a lot of the times was recruiting younger team members who were at the very early stages of their career.
(02:44):
And my job as a leader was very much to support them through the growth of their careers, whether that's in the workplace we're in or moving on from that. So I guess I took it upon myself to, I remember saying to one of my bosses in the past, I want to be a traveller, but for women in this organisation, it's a very mal-dominated industry, and I'm the first one to take maternity leave. And I think there's an opportunity to really project for the women here what their careers could look like and pave that path for them Now that didn't turn out to be the workplace where that vision could come to life. And so it was the conversation with Fleur. Fleur and I have actually known each other my whole life. Our parents are best friends and we That's
Danielle Lewis (03:33):
Cool. I didn't know that.
Kirsty Jackson (03:34):
Yeah, so while we didn't grow up as active friends together because we're different ages, we both had babies together. Our first babies are only about a week apart. So we started talking around that time and that's when I started talking to probably more as a mentor figure for me around what I want out of the workplace. And she was on in semi-retirement after she'd sold her PR agency. And so it really evolved from there. And we wanted both really naturally passionate about women and wanted to create a product that didn't have a ceiling, wasn't selling time like a consulting agency originally. We had this idea of an umbrella agency where Organisations could come to one place to get all of the services they need, say to launch a brand. But we had the legals and the accounting and the trademark attorney and the branding and all of the other elements that they needed all under one roof. And that's what Freelancing, Gems is in a digital capacity where we could support more women. So yeah, I think I was born with it.
Danielle Lewis (04:47):
I love that. And you mentioned marketing as part of your career history. So what industry were you in and what role do you play in Freelancing Gems now? Is it the marketing vibes?
Kirsty Jackson (05:01):
Yeah, so at Freelancing Gems, I am, I wear all of the hats every single day. You do? Yes. But my focus of my role is marketing and product development. So as a marketing marketing events degree. So that's my bread and butter, that's what I've done my whole career. Probably about six or seven years ago now, I stepped into startup marketing or in the tech space, so moved much more into product marketing, digital, very much only digital marketing and away from that broader brand marketing, although that's always, always there. Background. Yes, always part of it, chicken and egg situation there. So yeah, at Freelancing Gems, I get to do my best work as a marketer, and I have always had a keen interest in tech, and I was one of eight girls at Loretto in the computer science class and almost did an IT degree before I got pulled in a different direction. So managing the product development, I guess just gives me that sort of analytical outlet that I have there as well. And it's so much connected to the customer experience. So it's a perfect position for me where I am responsible for the customer experience and the marketing experience, but I can create the product how I want it to deliver that experience as well.
Danielle Lewis (06:38):
That is one of the amazing things about being in startup world. You can actually make the impact, you can actually draw from your customer feedback and make change like ASAP. It's so good.
Kirsty Jackson (06:51):
Yeah, I would be the worst employee of the big corporate now or government. I think I lasted two years in government, which was really long, two years, and got out as soon as I possibly could because yeah, my husband works for a lot of government clients and just listening to the meetings and the story, I can't do it. I couldn't. Such a waste of time.
Danielle Lewis (07:17):
It's really interesting. Well, I mean, do you think there's a big difference between, so drawing from your corporate background, corporate marketing, being a marketing employee and then having a startup, having a business and being in charge of marketing for that business?
Kirsty Jackson (07:38):
Yes. I think I can move faster because I don't necessarily need to convince the people around me of the value of marketing. It's interesting, I don't know why, but it feels like marketing is this first division that execs know they need to bring on, but it's also the first division that they feel they can just turn off and on market tap, I mean that language was used with me once by the CFO. Marketing is something we can turn on and off like a tap. And so I think that carries through. That's true of a lot of organisations. And Fleur has background in PR and so marketing and she's not someone that I need to convince of the value of marketing, which is your role as an executive. Absolutely. And as marketers, we are storytellers, so we should be able to use those skills to convince the key decision makers or our team if we are on that exec, the value of what it is that we want to do. But I guess so it just means I don't need to have those conversations. I can move faster because we all get it.
Danielle Lewis (08:53):
Yeah, it is so interesting. It always blows my mind. I know obviously Spark, where actually I'm all scrunched too, so all my businesses are sales and marketing related, but it is really interesting. You do find that through difficult times, sales, marketing, advertising are the first things to be cut, and then people can't understand why their sales are declining.
Kirsty Jackson (09:16):
Go.
Danielle Lewis (09:16):
It must be the market. You've stopped talking to the market,
Kirsty Jackson (09:21):
And maybe it's how we package up when we're budgeting and forecasting. We've got this cost of sales section where definitely operations is necessary, accounts development, that's all really necessary. But there is this, what about acquisition and how marketing is involved in the retention of that or the customer experience? I think customer success team, customer experience team are starting to blend into that cost of sales line. But yeah, so maybe the questions around how do we get more of our marketing efforts up into that cost of sales section so that it's completely wrapped up in the cost of delivering.
Danielle Lewis (10:05):
Yes, that's genius. I think that you have to solved it. You just solved it for every sales and marketing person on the planet. I love that so much.
Kirsty Jackson (10:13):
Move your expense line into the cost of sales and you don't.
Danielle Lewis (10:18):
That is so good. I love it. I love it. So obviously at Freelancing, Gems, you work with a lot of amazing women in business. So obviously freelancers are inherently business owners, whether they call themselves that or not. What have you just noticed, I guess, over the last couple of years, trends for freelancers? Do you think now is the time to be a freelancer? Do you think now is the time to get a job? What's your vibe on the market?
Kirsty Jackson (10:48):
Yes. It's funny. I think if we had this conversation three weeks ago, I'd answer completely differently, but number of conversations we're having at the moment, we all feel that the cost of living is outrageous right now. And I think I've worked it out that when chicken is fast or expensive, cost, sorry, the cost of living is through the roof because it's
Danielle Lewis (11:12):
Too high. It's way too high
Kirsty Jackson (11:14):
To me. Everyone's after the chicken, everyone buys a cheaper meat when petrol's too high. So when Bulbark is having a chicken shortage,
Danielle Lewis (11:22):
We know we're in trouble. Yeah, absolutely.
Kirsty Jackson (11:25):
So in saying that, what we have found, so we launched Freelancing, Gems mid-COVID August, 2020. We started playing with the idea the year before, and then really I started getting serious about it late 2019, but really when the pandemic hit in March, that gave us a deadline. We said to ourselves, okay, this is one that women are really, really going to need. Now there's going to be how many women stood down out of work. So we really moved fast to get the platform up and running then. And for us at that time, we had some great success because we know with brands like Flight Centre, their marketing team of 50 plus people all stood down except like three people and so many, we were there for many of those creatives jumped straight onto the platform for other women at that time. They had been playing around with the side hustle, their role was made redundant or they were stood down. So they had capacity to give it a good go. And by joining Freelancing Gyms, they now have fully viable businesses where for some of them, even their husbands have quit their corporate role and come on with them as well. So that was a really good time for women in contract work then, because also, of course there's all of these recruitment freezes, and the alternative is a contract start that comes out of this other magical bucket of funds and gets around.
Danielle Lewis (12:54):
I love that magical bucket of funds,
Kirsty Jackson (12:56):
The magical contractor bucket, and it's happening again now. So cost of living. So that was a pandemic, that was pandemic reasons, but this one now is cost of living is so high. So there's brands like beauty, retail brands, etc. Banks like mortgages are slowing down. This retail boom is correcting slowly over time. And so for them, businesses really slowed down. So for these, say for example, big beauty brands, they're back to recruitment freeze. And so we're seeing the jobs jump onto our platform because the opportunity, again is for contractors to take those on from that magical bucket. So I think there's always a right time to start freelancing or contracting now is better time than any kind of when the economy's doing it, tough freelancers have the opportunity.
Danielle Lewis (13:53):
That's so cool. Which I think is awesome. It kind of almost puts the power back into your hands as somebody who might be feeling the pinch of the cost of living crisis, being able to actually say, well, stuff it, I'm going to draw on my skills and throw my hat in the ring and try and generate some more income for myself and stop relying on my employer. I think it's kind of awesome. I mean so's about the economy, but kind of awesome that we do have that opportunity to community kind of put our own destiny in our own hands.
Kirsty Jackson (14:26):
And we just had an open house here at our new office space today, and the women were from all different industries, all different stages of their careers. One woman just quit her full-time job a few weeks ago, no prospects, lots of ideas, has freelanced in the past and just wants to chase her passions again and to do work that matters. And that was like everyone's at different stages of business, but everyone could relate to that story. And then there's other women who have been consulting and freelancing for 25 years and still doing that now, but maybe moved back looking for a local network. So everyone had different stories, different stages, but everyone could relate to each and every person's story. So yeah, it's true. There is so much freedom in freelancing and still corporate business is not built for a sustainable career, sustainable work-life balance. I think people have, what Covid has been good for is people have more of an appetite to chase balance. I balance is a weird word for a mum. It doesn't exist.
Danielle Lewis (15:53):
I dunno if it exists with business owners or mums.
Kirsty Jackson (15:56):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Business owners, we were just talking about that today. I mean, if you are going to go out and start a business, it has to be something that you're truly and deeply passionate about because that passion will sustain you through the high capacity that you have to work at. You are going to have to work nights and you're going to have to work weekends, but you'll want to because that's what sustains you and what gives you drive. And it's where you want to spend your time. Especially you're loving if you love your clients you work with or if you're loving your say if you've got a small team and you love working with them, it's just the same as going to lunch with your little friends. If you love your work that much, yeah, that's will sustain you.
Danielle Lewis (16:41):
I love that. It is so true. You're right. I know it's funny. I think people get a little confused by the Instagram memes that go around with the balance and then the hustle. And some people are in one camp, other people are in other camps. And I do feel like it is difficult, especially in the early days, not to have to put in a bit of hustle to build Google business. So yeah, I love that idea that actually going after something that you're deeply passionate about to make sure that drive does sustain you is so important.
Kirsty Jackson (17:14):
Yeah. And that's what you need in the beginning, especially if it's something on your own. 80% of us freelancers work on our own. And so that stuff's really hard to carry on your own if you're not super energized about it.
Danielle Lewis (17:26):
Exactly. And where do we think this is going? So you guys have just created a study, you've just done a massive survey with the urban list. What came out of that? Where do we think the world is heading here in the terms of future of work?
Kirsty Jackson (17:42):
Yeah, so one of the major, so there were three different chapters to the report. One looked at the remote revolution and what that really means and how do we make that stick and what about working remotely or flexible work is actually really is really important to workers. Another one was wellness at work. And so that one's really about how the onus is on the employer to support the mental health and wellness of their employees and where the opportunities are there. And that comes back to that element of we were talking about earlier of community and how important community is to find in the workplace community and connection to find in the workplace where no longer are we getting it from traditional areas of our lives like church or from our local neighbourhood. And for me, I think there's so many pieces that have come out of that report, but for me that first chapter that we looked at was passion, the new promotion. So that was really, yeah, it was a question that we asked early on in the piece in the survey. And it was about finding, I guess it was really about testing the market on what truly is important to them now post covid or on the other side of the pandemic, although it feels like it's always going to be here, it's always lingering.
Danielle Lewis (19:13):
Yes,
Kirsty Jackson (19:16):
That, so the report found that when looking for a new role, like seventy-six respondents said that salary is really important, but while in a role and happy in a role or working in an organisation that dropped super low, like one in 10 people said salary was important, but what they said was important is doing work that matters. And so yes, purpose is the new promotion. And so if there is an opportunity for employers to really assess what the purpose of their product, of their brand, what is the purpose of their organisation and do their employees connect with that purpose? So is the work they're delivering, giving them purpose in their personal endeavours or their career, it's
Danielle Lewis (20:11):
So important as well because I feel like as business owners, when you get to that stage where you've got a number of employees sometimes forget how much you actually need to reinforce what the purpose is, what impact you're trying to make, it gets very easy to have the time pass and for everyone to have deliverables and working to their KPIs, working to their tasks. Sometimes I think employers forget to actually reinforce the purpose and link it to their roles. So that is so interesting that that is what people are valuing, that it goes beyond money and people, I love that people want to do work that matters. That's cool. And
Kirsty Jackson (20:57):
Maybe that's looking at, there's so much talk around KPIs or OKRs or whatever your metrics might be, but definitely what's important now for the future is what are those impact measurements?
(21:11):
And so you're saying connecting them to that purpose, connecting them to those impact measurements. So for us at Freelancing Gems, how many women have we got into work? How many women have we closed their gender pay gap for? So that's something that we survey quite frequently at Freelancing. Gems, you come on in year one at the end of year one or midway through, we're asking, are you charging more? Have you increased your rate? Do you feel you're charging what you're worth? We are asking those questions all the time. And we know that 76% of members after that first year have given themselves pay rise.
Danielle Lewis (21:49):
That's so cool.
Kirsty Jackson (21:52):
And that's probably the key impact metric for us and how we can connect everybody to that purpose and keep it front of mind as well.
Danielle Lewis (22:02):
I love it.
Kirsty Jackson (22:03):
Get that up in that day to day.
Danielle Lewis (22:04):
Yeah, exactly. That is so cool. And look, testament to Freelancing Gems. I'm a Freelancing Gems member and I have got work of Freelancing Gems for scrunch agency through Spark. It is the best network and I've just met awesome people. I think that we talk about community and you relied on that for work with your teammates, but when you're a solo freelancer or like me living in a remote location, that community element of bringing people together and fostering conversations, and I think that that is severely underrated as well. It's hard to put a metric around that, but that's one of the things
Kirsty Jackson (22:52):
I'm trying to work out how to measure how much work is done between the Freelancing Gems members So far. I haven't nailed it, but I'm trying.
Danielle Lewis (23:01):
I think it's so important that community element, it is not just the yes, for me, it's a little therapy sometimes, which is always needed, but that just cross promotion in terms of members. And I get my email however often with all of the amazing faces in your community. Oh, amazing. I need one of those people. I need one of those people. I think that it's really interesting the fact that we can actually get that as a business owner or a freelancer through a platform like Freelancing Gems. We don't need to actually be employed and try and gain that community from a workplace
Kirsty Jackson (23:40):
Completely. And I'm glad to hear that experience of yours because that's exactly our purpose. Our job is, I was saying to the women today at the open house, it is our job to promote your service, so tag us in whatever you want. If you've got content, we're happy to share it. It is our like-soul purpose to put you guys on a platform and to put your name up in lights and absolutely the impact that we have for you as a member is those connections that you gain, the work that you gain, the success that you reach in business because women in business experience unique challenges. We know that and we, Claire and I are the team to deliver this mission because, so we have those same challenges, but also as employers we've seen, we are both customers on both sides. We're the freelance or the consultant that's had these challenges and we're the employer on the other side that wants to connect with skilled, available, standout female talent or women and just need one place to find more.
Danielle Lewis (24:51):
That is so cool. We're
Kirsty Jackson (24:52):
Time poor.
Danielle Lewis (24:53):
Totally. Exactly. We're also trying to
Kirsty Jackson (24:55):
Build
Danielle Lewis (24:56):
An empire on a schedule here, but interesting segue. So I'm interested to know then about your experience in business. Obviously we know the importance of the market in which we're living, but what about your lived experience? So how was it for you going from employee to business owner? And I know you're a mom as well, so how do you navigate building this business, championing this mission, being a mom? How have you navigated this space? Have you found any challenges along the way?
Kirsty Jackson (25:31):
Oh, of course. Yes. So I come back to that passion piece and what's probably so passion, of course you have to have that because there's a lot of late nights and this and that, and especially when I was working in a full-time role and starting to play around with this idea, any work that I did around this idea was late nights and weekends. And it's that deep work in the very beginning as well. Let's do a full research project on the customer profiles, what that looks like, and that's my jam. That's the stuff that I do and brought to the table. And then of course we're putting the brand together on the weekend and all that sort of thing. So passion for store, but perseverance is probably the key element required of any startup founder because I would say the biggest challenge for us in business has been the investment journey. And I know that investment journey well as well. It's a real roller coaster ride and it is a real test of resilience and perseverance and of confidence as well. But I think what's helped us in that area, because you pitch your business a billion times, you get a billion really long, lengthy, no emails. The no emails are usually the really long ones. They come up weird times. It's not during business hours. We've had a lot of them. So yeah, now I'm wrapped up in that experience. Lost my train of thought. But no,
Danielle Lewis (27:08):
I mean I think it's interesting to even put a pin in because it kind of illustrates as well the amount of things you have to do, be aware of, think about, become an expert in as a business owner when you're an employee, you don't suddenly go, oh, well now I know how to do the marketing, how to do the finances, how to go out and raise capital, how to build a tech product. You just right in the trenches trying to figure out all that. It's really fucking difficult.
Kirsty Jackson (27:39):
And what I say, I think I would say almost every day, no, I have no idea how to do that, but I'll just work it out. And so it has to be, you have to go into a business with that attitude that it doesn't matter if you don't know how to work it out. It doesn't matter if you've never built a cashflow model or you've never done financial forecasting or you've never done a bass or any, I'm a creative finance banking is not my jam, but it is now because it's my finance and it's my banking. So that's again, when I think it comes down to when you are building, I mean, I call freelancing jam as my middle child.
Danielle Lewis (28:16):
Yeah, that's what I say.
Kirsty Jackson (28:17):
I put just as much time and effort and energy and she's kept me up just as much at night. That's so true. Just as labor intensive as our, my two boys on either side. So yeah, you just give it a go. You just have to go into it with an attitude of I'll work it out.
Danielle Lewis (28:38):
I love that. And you are so right, because I also don't think that ever ends. I think that there's an interesting thing. I think we have kind of these rose colored glasses on at the start where we think if we just push, push, push at some point the flood gates will open and life will be amazing. But I just think the bigger you get, the bigger your problems are. There's just more things to deal with. You really do. I love that you do have to have that attitude of I will just figure it out and everything will be okay if we just keep persevering, keep moving forward because we are doing something amazing here.
Kirsty Jackson (29:11):
And I think what's so important, I mean early on in the journey, I heard the tip of ensuring that you have a folder on your dashboard of your client testimonials or great
Danielle Lewis (29:23):
Feedback. I love this one. Yes.
Kirsty Jackson (29:25):
And it does work. It is so important. So I get the, say for example, I get the Google testimonials direct to my inbox and respond to them. And I'll never change that path because that is so important for me as a co-founder to stop and remind myself of what it is that we are delivering and that we do have absolute product market fit. We have proven the model, and we are delivering on our mission for these women in real life. These women have had real life major changes where we've been these words, we've been a lifeline for them. They are able to spend more time with their children, say for example, or that other example where their husbands quit their corporate job and they're both working in the organisation together. We have made that change and we had delivered on our mission for so many women. We've got over around about a thousand members now on both sides of the marketplace. And so we are making a real impact for those people. And that is so important when you are consistently getting those from people who honestly don't connect with the problem that you're solving.
Danielle Lewis (30:36):
Yeah. I know I've said it a couple of times recently on the podcast. I have this funny, I've just been really reflecting on venture capital investment, how little women get invested in that seems to be declining, not even improving. And I just have this feeling that it's going to be us. It's actually going to be women that solve this problem for women. There's a few interesting crowdfunding platforms that have just come out that only fund female-led businesses, and I saw one, I thought, that's it. That's going to be what happens is it's going to be us successful female founders reinvesting in the next group of female founders, and there's going to be a few of us that go, we're fucking sick of this shit and solve it ourselves,
Kirsty Jackson (31:28):
My
Danielle Lewis (31:28):
Fortune telling.
Kirsty Jackson (31:31):
And it'll be really good to reflect on in six to 12 months. Yeah, that's right. Let's do that. Although Julia Slifer, who is our current chief entrepreneur in Queensland told us on the panel at our International Women's Day launch that women who, women founders who get investment from other women or women crowdfunding platforms, anything sort of specific to women or grants, etc, are less likely to gain future investment.
Danielle Lewis (32:02):
Really
Kirsty Jackson (32:03):
What that initial investment, if it's by a woman, is sort of discounted as like, oh, that was like sisterhood. They didn't really assess. So it just completely discounts the value of the startup in assuming, oh, it's just like a sisterhood thing. It didn't even really assess if it was a viable investment. And that's our story at Freelancing Gems. We have, our investors are females and as well, we're not just female-led, we're only female-led. So our founding team is all females and we're solving a woman's problem, and there's a massive gender pay gap, especially in these things. And so all the men have money, but they don't connect with this woman's problem that we're solving. And so yes, they're rocky rollercoaster,
Danielle Lewis (32:56):
Don't they talk to their fucking wives? I've sworn a lot in this podcast this,
Kirsty Jackson (33:02):
It's a passionate topic.
Danielle Lewis (33:05):
Yeah. I mean, it's got to be frustrating, right? This is not a small problem. This is a huge problem that you guys are solving. It
Kirsty Jackson (33:13):
Impacts 50% of the population.
Danielle Lewis (33:16):
It blows my mind that people don't understand the size of this problem and the impact that you're making. I mean, I know things will, you guys are amazing. You are the ones for this job, so I have no doubt that it will, you'll get everything you need to make it a joint. I think
Kirsty Jackson (33:32):
That's the problem though. I think I find it's such a big problem that as soon as you mention it, you kind of feel like half of the room's like, oh, yeah. But I mean, people have said, oh, gender pay gap, what can we do about it? Other people have said, is it even really? They don't believe in it. Wow. It's like a religion or something.
Danielle Lewis (33:50):
Oh my God. Totally. And it's like, yeah, we've proven it. We have the stats.
Kirsty Jackson (33:57):
There's legislation around reporting on your gender pay gap now. Yeah,
Danielle Lewis (34:02):
Exactly.
Kirsty Jackson (34:03):
We can help with.
Danielle Lewis (34:04):
That's hilarious.
Kirsty Jackson (34:06):
Everyone needs help with that, apparently.
Danielle Lewis (34:07):
Yes. Oh, well, I can imagine. You're absolutely incredible. Kirsty, thank you so much for being on Spark TV and sharing your wisdom, sharing your journey with our amazing female community. How about we leave this on one last note. Any advice for a female founder who might be struggling in their business today? Any words of wisdom that hold true for you on this journey?
Kirsty Jackson (34:38):
Yes, absolutely. That tip of truly go and go. Put your testimonials into a folder somewhere, or better yet, get them on Google because Google loves a review and that's going to do really well for your business, your IDO. But with any of those hesitations, meet them head on. Do what you would for a client, say for example, explore each of them, identify how you could overcome each one, and then make a plan to test ideas that will take the least amount of effort and make the most impact. So say for example, maybe your time for, why don't you carve out four hours a week to spend on your new business or invest in a course to upskill. But I think my biggest takeaway would be to stay curious and to just start exploring.
Danielle Lewis (35:24):
I love it. I love it. You are incredible. Thank you again for being on Spark tv, and we'll definitely reconnect in 12 months to see if we've solved all the world's problem.
Kirsty Jackson (35:35):
Yeah. Thank you.
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