#awinewith Jo Fisher
MEET Jo Fisher, Co-Founder of Leadership Shapers
You can find them here:
Transcript
Danielle Lewis (00:05):
Joe, we're here. Welcome to Spark tv.
Jo Fisher (00:09):
Amazing. Thank you so much for having me. This is exciting.
Danielle Lewis (00:13):
I am so excited. You are actually the first interview I'm doing after I've taken a few weeks off, so I'm super excited to be getting back into it. This is the bit the part of my job that I absolutely love the most, just talking to incredible people. So thank you.
Jo Fisher (00:32):
Great, great. Well let's kick off. Where are we going to go in this conversation?
Danielle Lewis (00:37):
I love it. Well, I'm so excited as well because you are also one of the first ever Spark mentors and I'm really excited to dive into that today. Before we get to that, let's just start off by telling everyone who you are and what you do.
Jo Fisher (00:53):
So I'm Jo Fisher, about to change my name back to my maiden name, which we might cover on this conversation to Joe Pugh, so we can talk a little bit about that. But I'm head coach and business partner of Leadership Shapers, and we are a company that works with businesses and business leaders of all shapes and sizes, and we really helped to grow their leadership capacity and mentoring capabilities is really what we do. I love it.
Danielle Lewis (01:26):
Yeah, I love it so much. And how did you even get into being head coach, business partner at Leadership Shapers? How did
Jo Fisher (01:34):
We get here? It's a long story. I turned 50 last year about to turn 51, so there's a lot that's gone into getting to this point. I'm originally Scott, well, I'm Scottish, still am Scottish, although I'm an Aussie citizen. So half many, many Aussies are. We started off somewhere else and I always had this desire, even when I was young, to go traveling and to explore the world. And I don't think that's changed at all in those 50 years. And I've done loads of travel, lived in lots of different countries and my professional career was in TV commercials, production company, so making TV commercials back in the late nineties when there was lots of money, lots of long lunches. I got paid nothing but did get to ride in helicopters and go traveling. So good, so good. It's got to be a balance. There's got to be some perks.
(02:33):
Oh my god, so much fun. But actually a lot of hard work and worked on the world's biggest brands, like all the big jobs that would pay a lot of money and worked with some amazing creatives, directors, all sorts of people. And that really elevated my work life or my work. How would you say? Work ethic expectations. Yeah, work ethic, absolutely. To somewhere that I didn't know even existed. And then from there, I've again traveled more lived overseas, worked in ad agencies, ended up in New York for a number of years and worked as chief of staff in my early thirties who got this big senior leadership role, absolutely shooting myself and quite a monumental moment in my life of going, oh my God, this is amazing, but I don't actually, can I do that? The whole imposter syndrome took hired a coach at that point, which was incredible and fast track many years later where I then decided to become a coach myself after having three kids that I wanted to get out of that the advertising industry, which is not particularly family friendly and the family wasn't enjoying my business class trips to Hong Kong and staying in five star hotels, I was quite liking it, but hey, there's a balance.
(04:08):
So yeah, so I ended up going down that path, studying at the Neural Leadership Institute 14 years ago and becoming a qualified coach, I knew I needed the skills. That's one thing to have the intuition and experience is really good, but also developing skills alongside that was really important, and that's just laid me down this road of working with all sorts of different types of companies and people. And also along the way, I've also, which we might touch upon, I've also with my ex-husband, we built up a service-based business during Covid time, which I came out of this year. So I've kind of gone through a whole life cycle myself within setting up a small business, the hustle, all the challenges that come with being a founding partner of a small service-based business. That's been another learning. So it's like a snowball effect. I seem to have gathered lots of things as I've gone along my journey and now, yeah, now I'm here. I am purely focused on coaching, mentoring side of things.
Danielle Lewis (05:16):
I love it. And oh my God, I have so many questions. There's a lot of questions. There's a lot of questions. Oh my God. Okay, so let's start with the small business with your ex-husband, because I think that's going to be juicy. What did you do? How did you navigate working with your partner? Obviously it's ended, whether that was good or bad, very interested in that story.
Jo Fisher (05:43):
Yeah, so we started just before, well, we started in Covid and we started up a service-based tree business and started from absolutely nothing, just the two of us. Him with the skills and me with the business savvy and you've just got to make it work. We had three kids at home, everyone can relate at covid time, there's a lot of uncertainty. We didn't know where it was all going. And also at that time, professional development was going down, people weren't hiring, coaches weren't wanting additional training or whatever. So it made sense to go down that route. And so that was four years ago, became really successful, a really successful business,
Danielle Lewis (06:29):
Amazing.
Jo Fisher (06:29):
Just putting in the hard yards, setting up the systems, bringing in people who knew more than we did. The accountants, the lawyers, the oh and s, all the things are going, I don't know, I dunno what I'm doing, but I know that I can find the answer. I believe in myself enough that I can figure out the answer or at least figure out where to go for an answer, or at least to get the first question answered or to get a direction I believed in myself enough to go, what's next? What's next? What's next? And learned a huge amount.
(07:06):
It was all encompassing because you're working from home, you're working with your partner is seven days a week. It's hard. It's tough trying to set boundaries around that, hiring people, getting more assets into the business, getting more profit into the business, getting juicy on the numbers, all exciting stuff. And then this year I, I've had a tough year. My mom passed away, my marriage broke down and my brother passed away. So all of these things happened. Oh my God, are you okay? I am. Okay. Thank you for asking. I am okay. I'm okay. And so part of that was with my marriage, breaking down is no longer being part of that business. So that business still exists and is doing incredibly well and then pulling myself out of it. So how do you do that? How do you that? Yeah, it's tough. It's tough. As an employee, you just hand your notice and you don't want to work here anymore. I'm done.
Danielle Lewis (08:09):
Yeah, totally. I'll, my God, I remember the days they were fantastic as La Vista, I'm out of here. Yes, here, my laptop, take all my
Jo Fisher (08:19):
Problems away. That's right. Yeah, that's right. That's right. And because we were separating with our marriage as well, the business is also part of the assets of that partnership
(08:33):
You go into. If you go into a business with anyone at all at some point that business will at some point cease to exist. Whether you die, whether you're 99 years old and you pass away and then it turns into something else, or whether you choose to end it or someone chooses to leave or to sell it or whatever, it will come to an end point at some point for the people involved. But you never start out thinking that way. You may along the way think about, could we sell this business? What would it be worth? What does that look like? Could we buy other businesses? What would that look like? So there's things along the way.
(09:16):
But yeah, so then going, okay, I don't want to be, I'm want out. If you're a director in Australia, there's lots of legal paperwork that has to be signed. If you're separating as part of a marriage, then that's part of the matrimonial assets that then has to be worked out if there's a value associated with it that then goes together as part of your separation. So for anybody who's listening who is in a business with their partner, it's great when it's all going well, but it can be complicated, more complicated than if it was just you and me having a business together where we may have put some provisions aside or done some talking about what do we do at the end and what might that look like? And putting together some legal paperwork. I think many husband and wife teams, and there's many of them out there, lots of small businesses have people working together in different capacities. If that either ceases to exist as a business or you want out or the marriage ends or the partnership ends, it's complicated. You can't just go, I'm out, and that's it. Done. There more things to be considered with it. And then there's an emotional aspect as well, which is really tough. On top of that,
Danielle Lewis (10:41):
It's so tough. Well, I mean, everyone listening knows my business, not Spark, scrunch, the influencer marketing platform and agency. And I co-founded that business with a partner and he left the business first just went, no, I'm out, not interested. So that was interesting to navigate. Then we separated as, and it's interesting, we weren't married, but apparently after you've been together for 10 years, it's exactly the bloody same.
(11:13):
And then during that set, so we still had to go through family courts, document, the business, all of this rigmarole, and then he passed away before that was all signed off. So then I had to essentially separate with his family. So his estate, and you are just spot on. You just don't think about that. You go into, new businesses are like new relationships, and it's like, I think it's amplified when it's with somebody who you're in a relationship with. You just have this like, oh my God, we could take on the world. This is going to be fantastic. We're going to build the empire together. And you very quickly as you navigate running the business together, go, oh, okay, I didn't realize we'd have to navigate roles and responsibilities and this side of a personality that I've never seen before. And then as you say, exiting which people really don't think about it is so complicated and so emotional. It's just, yeah, I don't know if we have enough conversations about that.
Jo Fisher (12:20):
Totally. A lot of things talk about, I don't think we do at all, and it just feels icky and it's uncomfortable, and who wants to talk about that stuff, but isn't the best time to have hard conversations when any relationship isn't a good place to all say, Hey, can we have this hard conversation about this thing? I know it feels uncomfortable, but could we just start the conversation around anything, any type of
Danielle Lewis (12:47):
Relationship
Jo Fisher (12:48):
That you have, it's much better to have that conversation than the alternative. When it's highly emotional, you're stressed, the communication is difficult. That's tough. That's really, really, really tough. Yeah, and ultimately you're in a partnership. I mean, whether you're married or to your point, if you're living together, you're in a legal partnership and you want to leave a legal partnership in Australia, at least there's things that need to be done. Again, you can't just dust your hands and go, I don't want to have any part of this anymore. There's often documents to sign and tax bills to pay and things that need to happen. So yeah, that's been such a fascinating part. And even the part of getting your business valued. Traditionally service-based businesses, those kind of more trade style businesses don't, there's not a lot of value in them. People aren't paying much money for them.
(13:48):
If anything, they're wanting assets, they're wanting, maybe if there's some contracts that are there, that's what they're looking for. And again, you might've put your heart and soul into something and that continues. How do you find a fair number when you could go to 10 different business valuers and they could value it in 10 different ways? Which one do you choose? So there's also a lot of gray area. It's not as black and white as going, well, we'll do, and that'll be it. It's very gray. So again, I think when there's not clarity, that's where we get a lot of uncertainty in our life, which can create a lot of anxiety and worry and all of those things. So I dunno if at the moment I have any words of advice to give anyone, because I feel like I'm still process. I'm totally out of that business now. We've managed to sort it out quite relatively quickly. But yeah, I'm still processing and reflecting off it a difficult part to come out. So maybe we can just have more empathy for people who, as they're ending businesses or finishing one thing, maybe to try something else. There can be a transition time there and that can often be a good time to check in with people around
Danielle Lewis (15:09):
That. Yeah, definitely. And I think it's interesting because as well, we tend to celebrate the, I guess revenue success or PR headlines or perceived milestones, and that's kind of the thing that warrants posting on Instagram and having those conversations. But I think that realistically, more people are probably going through harder transition phases, whether it be, even if it's not business related, but changing a job, starting a new career, being let go, ending a marriage, whatever it might be. There are so many times in our lives where we do go through these transition periods. And it's interesting because I think that is what sets us up for the ultimate whatever it is we plan to do with our life. We don't all wake up finish high school and go, oh, this is the fabulous empire I'm going to build and launch in. It doesn't happen. We need all of these life experiences.
(16:18):
We need to try things and figure out that we don't like them anymore to actually ultimately find the thing that we want to do with our lives. I'm using air quotes because that's the thing that we always talk about. I mean, it's interesting. I had a moment on a couple of months ago actually, and I was just so excited about what we're doing. It's smart. And I went, wow, it's taken me until I'm 40 and multiple different businesses, a corporate career, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I went, wow. It's taken me that long to actually figure out what I want to do with the rest of my life and my mission and what I'm so passionate about. I always used to look at other people, even though I've had successful businesses, but I used to look at other people and think, I wonder if I'll ever care.
(17:05):
They care about the mission that they're on, and it only just hit me now that I'm about to turn 40. And I was like, I think it's just so interesting. We just celebrate these big things and not so much that, oh, awesome, you tried that and it didn't work out, or, awesome, let's have a new career. Awesome. Let's find a new partner or whatever. Or just happy being alone, whatever it is. The more I think that we can normalize and celebrate the fact that we are going into a next season of life, I don't think that can be a bad thing.
Jo Fisher (17:39):
No, not at all. And as you say that, what comes to mind for me as you talk about really finding that mission, that purpose piece now for you is I feel like I spent the first half of this 50 years doing things out of my comfort zone, lots of travel, lots of big jobs. That was all about me proving something to myself. I'm proving I can do it. I'm proving that I'm capable, that I'm worthy. It is all about giving me something. And then something changed, probably closer to your age where I started feeling like kind of a bit sick of that now, to be honest.
(18:34):
So self-indulgent, tick all the boxes. I could keep ticking the boxes or I could start taking all of that and feel confident. I do feel really strong. I feel really confident, nothing, not that it doesn't phase me, but I just really back myself now and I'm okay with being vulnerable. I'm okay with showing that life isn't always rosy and perfect. There's a lot of struggles behind the scenes, but I'm very much wanting to be of service to other people. And I know I've listened to your podcast many times, and that seems to come up with a lot of people that you talk to within the smart community where doing different things that want to be of service, which I think is a value system, how you do that in many different ways. But that's how I feel. It's like, how can I be of service?
(19:26):
What can I do to help to shape, to teach, to hold space for what does that look like? And so I'm much more outwardly focused on others and my part in facilitating that. But I think that's, for me anyway, that's been an age and experience thing. Not to say I don't want to indulge in some nice things for me time to time, but just not my whole focus. My whole focus has absolutely shifted. Gosh, I'm so grateful for that because I think I'd just be quite selfish and indulgent if I didn't have something else. It's really helped me grow as a human being to be there for other people. So yeah, it definitely resonate with what you're saying.
Danielle Lewis (20:12):
I think that's such a beautiful perspective. I know how hard it is firsthand, and I know how easy it is to not have perspective and have those days that are just, oh, my effing God, are you kidding me? How did I get here? And really spiral, spiral, spiral. Did you find you coached yourself through thinking of you as a coach? Did you put your own coaching hat on to get through those periods or do you have a coach or how did that work for you?
Jo Fisher (20:51):
Yeah, I think probably all of the above at different times. So I don't feel like people necessarily need a coach all the time or need a mentor all the time. I think a big focus that I have when I'm working with people is to check what does your support network look like? Because it really gives a big insight into someone's life and their ability to navigate through different things. So whether that's, I've got a bunch of girlfriends who are all high achievers and we go and we have drinks and we chew the fat that we're not getting into details, but we're sharing how we're feeling about things. Fantastic. Whether it's I've got people that I do my exercise with or I go and have this other hobby, this other thing, or whether I've got a coach or whether have a mentor that we meet casually and I really enjoy that or whatever it looks like.
(21:50):
But I think that really having a support network is critical for just in general as a human being, having people around you that you can share different things of your life, you can open up in different ways. I do believe that often having someone externally can be really helpful. So in a coaching sense, say like in a corporate environment, having someone who's not in the business where you can say, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm really lost. I don't know if I am capable. I don't know if I'm good enough. You don't want to say that internally. You want as in a coworker, a boss, no way.
(22:41):
But if you're feeling it, then being able to share that. So I think it's really about having a support network. And I've done all the things at different times, but I think I've always got a support network. And as I've got older, even navigating this year, which has been incredibly difficult, I've prioritized, I've kept my circle small. I've done exercise every single day. I have reduced drinking alcohol. I've been journaling, I've been doing all the things. Whereas if I was in the situation my mid-twenties, I would have got drunk all the time and made some pro-choice, let's just say that because I just didn't have the ability to be able to have that perspective of going, I will be fine, but there's some things that I can do that will help that and assist that. And going and seeing a therapist, all of those things I know are helpful versus when I didn't have that when I was younger, I didn't have that perspective. It just was like, yeah, probably just going out and dancing the night away
Danielle Lewis (23:47):
With Oh yes, I remember those days.
Jo Fisher (23:52):
Yes.
Danielle Lewis (23:53):
It's actually hilarious. I was thinking that the other day. I'm like, if only they would let us dance the night away, but at 7:00 PM at an age appropriate hour. But there is actually, what is their names? Lisa and someone,
Jo Fisher (24:06):
I
Danielle Lewis (24:06):
Can't remember. They've just done this like a disco club or
Jo Fisher (24:11):
Ladies. I went to one of Brisbane. Yeah, went to one of Brisbane about three months ago. Oh my God. It was so much. Was it the best? It was so much fun. Music was great, but my legs and ex day, I could hardly walk because I'd wore heels. I could hardly walk. I just was like, this is so painful. I catch it. It was so much fun. It was so much fun. It was great.
Danielle Lewis (24:33):
Oh my God, that is so cool. That is good therapy. I do like that. That is
Jo Fisher (24:38):
Good therapy. Absolutely.
Danielle Lewis (24:40):
It's really interesting. I think about the way, I don't know, I've always thought sometimes, and I think especially women, we do struggle to ask for help. And I think about athletes. I think about how an athlete who is somebody who wants to be at the top of their game, has a support network. So therapists, nutritionists, sports coach, depending on what field they're in. This coach, that coach and I always looked at that and I thought, you know what? Well, I want to be the best I can be at life. So what does that mean to me? It means that I need to look after my health and wellness. I need people that, like you said earlier in the conversation, the people who you want to bring in business, who have skills and expertise that you don't do need to be able to talk to someone, whether it's in a therapist capacity, coach capacity, mentor capacity.
(25:38):
And I've always thought about that as my lifeboard. We have a board for our business, and there are people from different industries. And it's interesting because as someone who has a board for scrunch, you can't really tell them what's and all every time. So I've always loved this idea of creating my own lifeboard where I have this group of people who are my support network for different areas of my life. And I do love that what you just said around at different stages of your life, you do need different things. So I think it's important to actually just stop and reflect and kind of think about, well, I want to be the best I can be. And that looks different for every person. So who do I need to bring into my life that will be that support network for me?
Jo Fisher (26:28):
That's right, 100%. And there's always people to find. And even if it leads you on from one place, there's always something to learn. If you've got that kind of open mind, I think time is the resource that is most precious. So you don't want to waste time, but often you do need to kind of slow down. I think to speed up in some regards, slowing down to reflect, slowing down, to take a moment to kind of navigate what are you doing? Rather than there's busy train that we often get on whether our thoughts, whether action, I've got to be busy, I've got to do stuff I've got to do. Oh my God, I need more, more, more. And really in those moments, it's about being more grounded and slowing it down, going, what's going on? Where am I at? What do I actually need? Do I need to change a little bit?
(27:15):
And then you go, so I think it's kind of like this. We need times to just slow down, which to your sports analogy, that's what sport, let's have a look at your game. Let's have a look at how you did. What do we need to do? Let's check in. So how can we do that for ourselves? And often having, whether it's a community where you can come in and have your wine chats together, whether it's an individual or people, whatever it might be, that can provide those little markers of, let me just slow down and reflect on that, rather than just the busyness. I see this all the time. And with individual clients, it's one of the things about having a mentoring or a coaching space is it allows people to slow down. It allows people to reflect, to take a moment, which just sounds like, but I can do that myself. Sure, but do you, because most, most people are like, what's next? What's next? And then if you can actually go, do you know what? I can see that I always do that thing, or I've noticed that when this happens, I tend to do that.
(28:25):
That's something I can, I'm going to change that. I'm going to do something different. And I think that's a big part of the power of those types of relationships. It's really about creating a space, an environment for you to be much more intentional, get much more clarity, and with that, then you have that confidence to go, okay, I'm on the right track. This is where I'm going. I do think particularly in small business, and if you haven't done that thing before, or if you're taking a new job, a lot of the time there's just not clarity. You're kind of not quite sure what it looks like or where you're going. You kind of got a general idea. I've heard people say, if you just told me what to do, I'll do exactly that thing. I just need to know. And you're going only, it was that easy. But I do think we have this innate desire for wanting certainty that gives us control, makes us feel more calm, gives us confidence. But yeah, you have to work at getting that.
Danielle Lewis (29:22):
Totally. And I think it's really interesting because as you are talking about that and people holding space for you, I think one of the biggest things I've noticed with coaches, mentors, support systems, community calls that I jump on, oftentimes it's somebody asking me a question, a question that I probably wouldn't ask myself. And it's almost that someone to be there to just dig a little bit, that actually forces me to stop it actually thought. I go, oh, I haven't really thought about it like that. And it's almost that because even your overachieving brain can steamroll this, oh yeah, I know I'm doing this, I'm doing this, everything's fine, everything's fine. And someone just goes, what about this? And you're like, oh, shit. And it does actually having somebody to really kind of see through your bullshit a little bit and see that you're just running, running, running, running is just so valuable. I think there's just something so powerful about having someone or a group of people who will hold space for you, but also hold you accountable to yourself a little bit.
Jo Fisher (30:40):
Yeah, agreed. There's an author, Michael Bunge, Stanier I think is his name, is an Aussie guy who wrote the Coaching Trap, I think a bunch of other books as well. And he talks about being curious just a little bit longer.
(31:03):
So rather than it being like, this is my challenge, be curious a bit longer. So often what people present with, particularly in whether it's a business perspective or whether it's about a mindset perspective or how they're showing up how they're operating is what they present with tends not to be the thing that really is the core issue. And it's only, so if someone says, oh, Danny, I'm really struggling to get to sell my program, and you're going, okay, let's fix that problem and we'll go with what you've said, then 10 minutes down you find out, oh, you actually don't even have a program. You haven't even created it yet. Oh, well,
(31:46):
Often people are just presenting with the symptom. And for other people, you want to be more curious. You want to find out what's really going on, ask more questions. And he talks, Michael talks about tends not to be, he'll say he has a series of questions, which she can Google to find them out, but it's kind of like, what's your challenge or what's the issue and what else? And what else? Basically ask that question about five times. So you get all of it and you're just exposing more of what's really going on. And then it's like, where do you need help? I can't remember his exact questions, but they're really good because yeah, the problem we have often actually isn't the core issue. It's a symptom of the core issue. And so just staying much more curious, asking more questions and not falling into that trap of, oh, well, let's talk about that then. Yeah, I think it can be really valuable.
Danielle Lewis (32:50):
It's so true. So I have been a sales person my whole life. That was my corporate career. That's the role I took when I started my first business. It is the role that I take in all of my businesses, absolutely love it. But as a result, people often ask for sales, mentoring, sales coaching. I've created sales courses, dah, dah, dah, dah. And it's so funny because I guess I'm a natural salesperson, which is great, but I just thought when I taught people how to sell, I would be teaching them the things to do. And it just blew my mind that I could tell somebody exactly what steps to do. But the biggest thing holding someone back from selling more stuff in their business was their mindset. And I was like, well, hang on. I don't do anything about mindset. I don't know how to deal with this.
(33:44):
Because the biggest problem people have is getting out of their own way. You are exactly right. They would come to me and they would be like, I dunno how to sell. I'm not selling enough. I need to make more money. What do I do? I'm like that, do that. And then they couldn't do it. And I was like, what the hell? I'm telling you exactly what to do. Why aren't you doing it? And it was actually not that they had a sales problem, it's that they had a confidence problem. They had a mindset problem, they had imposter syndrome. It was all of these things that were actually holding them back from sending the email or reaching out to the person on LinkedIn or picking up the phone or whatever it was. And I was like, wow, I can't tell anyone anything to do because that's not even the problem. The problem is actually the internal work for the majority of us. And it actually got me thinking. I know with the Spark mentoring, one of the biggest things that you focus on is that mindset and clarity. Do you think this is a universal problem that everybody has?
Jo Fisher (34:39):
Yeah. Yeah. Yep. I think it's so fascinating and it's so interesting that it just comes up over and over again. The reason that you're a natural at something is because it just flows. It's easy. You think, can't everyone do this? So I don't even necessarily think about it. And then you go and try something that's out of your comfort zone. You're like, why? So? Oh my God, I can't do it. I can't do it. Why do we think that? Is it achievable that we can all do everything or that everything is going to be easy for us? I mean, I think we're capable of having workarounds on things. You might never be the person who loves doing something, but can you get better at something? Absolutely. And it's that awareness. I read this really interesting report. It was a research around, and it says there's a bunch of them, but the one that I was reading was basically saying that I think something around that 80, 85% of people think that, but the reality is it's about 10 to 15%. People are actually self-aware. And so we all thinking, oh, I know this about myself, whatever. But really, we're quite blinded. We've all got our own blind spots, biases, belief systems that kind of hold us into this narrative or this kind of framework, which unless you've got someone else highlighting,
Danielle Lewis (36:11):
Oh,
Jo Fisher (36:12):
You can't do that, or, oh, you find that, oh, I can't, then you start going, oh God, yeah, it's so interesting how that all plays out. But yeah, I think there's things for everybody that something's fully easy, some things are hard. I do think there's some people who have more of that willing to give things a go or that growth mindset that can be helpful because it is, if you push people too far out of their comfort zone, they can often get into a place that is really, that they kind of freeze up on. It becomes, it's helpful to a point to push people out of their comfort zone, and then it can just be a real threat in the brain. And so it's navigating how far is enough to get the best out of people to move them through that without them going, I'm done.
(37:04):
I'm done. I can't do that. It just feels too scary or out of my comfort zone. So there's a real balance to keep people with, perhaps it's one thing you can do. And for somebody going, Hey, that's such a tiny step for others, that might be really getting them out of their comfort zone a lot. And so understanding that the humanness that we all have, that it's human part of our human conditioning, but how can we work with people in their individuality without judging people or making people feel bad, just going, okay, this is a reality. You're wanting to do more of this that feels uncomfortable. How do we get you there? What might that look like for you?
Danielle Lewis (37:44):
Yeah. And I think it's so powerful, just even that clarity around what do you really want? Do you want it because you want it or do you want it because somebody else said that's what you should do? And really unpacking, because also I find as well, if you don't really want something, you won't take those steps. You won't push yourself outside of your comfort zone. And I think there's real power in, again, just stopping and having those conversations and digging deeper into why you even want to go after a particular goal or particular thing in life. And having somebody there to unpack that with you can just be so helpful. I think oftentimes we do get stuck in our own heads and our own to-do lists and our own Instagram feeds telling us all the things that we're supposed to be doing with our lives. And the older I get, I say this, the more I'm realizing that if I don't design a life that I love, it's going to be pretty hard to get out of bed every morning.
Jo Fisher (38:58):
100%. 100%. And one thing I would add to that, which I really love, that sentiment and that direction is such a great reminder, is something that I focus a lot on is really, is joy. Joy is one of my core values. I grew up with a dad who was full of joy and said in his Scottish accent, if you can, he have a laugh, you may as well be dead. I love it. But really about what is bringing you joy. I talk to so many people and they're so focused on their life, their work, their business, their whatever. And I'd be like, tell me about how does joy play out in your life? What brings you joy? Share that with me. And sometimes it's like, I love my work. I love what's great. And sometimes it's like, oh, I don't know. They struggle with that.
(39:45):
And I think that's such a missed opportunity. To your point, be intentional around creating the life that you're wanting. And there's certain things we all have to do in order to survive in this modern world, but how you choose to show up, you have control over that. And being intentional around that and being intentional around, we do only have one life and that life is relatively short. And what are the things I love being around these people. Oh, I get so much joy from doing that thing, or really loving for me. I love, there's nothing better than having a great conversation with somebody today. I am feeling my joy cup right now. Very, very, I
(40:28):
Was just thinking that, talking with you. Yeah, I know. To me, that's a life well lived of having that ongoing versus when you're in a time of your life where you're like going, I just don't feel that. So for me, I often use that as a little litmus test as where's the joy coming through for you? And whatever that might look like. There's not a formula to it, but yeah, I think particularly when you're starting up a business, growing a business, you can get so lost in the day to day fu of trying to make things work, what it should look like, what it's not. And yeah, I think there's an opportunity for people to just tap into that. What brings you joy? Even if there's just one thing today that you can take a brief moment to be present and go, this is joyful. This is bringing me joy. And just enjoy that for a moment. I can really, such a simple thing. Yeah, I can really help.
Danielle Lewis (41:30):
I love it so much. Jo, you are best, and I could talk to you all day. I always love to wrap up these podcasts with one last piece of advice. So reflecting on your time in business, your career, your everything of life, what would be one piece of advice that you would give to another woman in business?
Jo Fisher (41:56):
Great question. I would say that's one piece of advice. Just one. That's a problem. I
Danielle Lewis (42:09):
Know. Tell me about it. I'm like, we need a whole other podcast for this. One question for that.
Jo Fisher (42:16):
I think don't overthink things. I think we can get so much in our own head around, do I do this? Is this the right move? Should I do that? Is that the right move? Who knows? Who knows what the right move is? Go and do the thing. Do the thing. Try the thing, give the thing a crack. Whatever the thing is in your life that you want to experience, because it's all about being in action, and it's the energetic reaction of doing things, being in action that then creates other opportunities. Other are ideas. The meeting of people, the meeting of minds, the different things that will happen in your life will happen because you've tried something. You're not just sitting thinking about it, and there's no guarantees in anything at all. And so I'd just say give things. Don't overthink things and try it. If you're interested, if you're curious, go down that path.
(43:18):
There's very few paths that you can go down that are the end of the road. Generally, the path will just lead you to a different path. And I've often felt in my own life, God, I could have just got here so much faster if I just, I seem to detour all the time. I'm always detour, but I'm learning. There's obviously a reason for that. So it's not about getting it perfect, it's just go where your desire is taking you. There's a lot of things around that, as in, of course, you don't want to be unsafe. You don't want to want there to be some support, whatever. But yeah, take some chances, take some risks. Don't overthink things too much. And if you can give it a try. And particularly when as a 50-year-old, I was going to say when I was younger, in some ways it was easier just to take some risk. I'm just going to go and travel. I'm just going to take that job somewhere else. I could do those things because it was just me. Whereas now I have children, a family that I wouldn't be able to do that. So it looks different, but I feel like the mindset's still the same thing. Give things a, don't overthink it. Whereas I think often as we get older, we want more security, more safety. It feels like there's more at risk. But yeah, I just encourage people to keep trying, keep pushing, be curious.
Danielle Lewis (44:48):
I love it. I love it so much. And wildly the phrase, don't overthink it has now come up for me twice today, so I feel like I need to hear that. Oh my God, you are the best. Joe, thank you so much for coming on the Spark podcast today and sharing your wisdom. It's been absolutely incredible to have you.
Jo Fisher (45:12):
Amazing. Thank you so much. It's been beautiful to be here.
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