#awinewith Caron Stace-Railly
MEET Caron, Founder of Caron Stace-Railly Consulting
You can find them here:
Transcript
Danielle Lewis (00:04):
Caron, welcome to Spark tv. I'm so excited to have you here.
Caron Stace-Railly (00:10):
I'm super excited and fantastic to meet you at last de hour. Lovely to see you.
Danielle Lewis (00:15):
I know I love these conversations so much because we all spend so much time on social media and email that actually having the little video on and having a chat, it's just so good. We've been talking for 15 minutes and we're like, okay, we've got to shut up because we need to record some of this. So
Caron Stace-Railly (00:33):
Easy to do.
Danielle Lewis (00:35):
It is. I love it. It's just good people and good business owners. So let's kick things off by just telling everyone who you are and what you do.
Caron Stace-Railly (00:45):
My name's Karen and I noticed a few years ago that people were really struggling to, particularly coaches and course creators to create websites or sales funnels that really connect and actually make sales for their business. So that's what I do, particularly I use the StoryBrand framework. So I think there's six of us in Australia who are certified to do the StoryBrand framework. I think I'm the only freelancer at the moment. Well, as far as I know, that's what's always changing. There's people coming and people going. So I just love helping, particularly coaches and course creators to really maximize online sales because online sales can be quite confusing and marketing can be quite confusing. And the biggest thing I think about marketing, which we've been sold, which isn't true, is that it's one size fits all, and it is. So not every business is different. Every business has got a different target market. So you can follow an online guru and they say, this is exactly how I did it, but unless they got exactly the same target market and the same business as you, everything's going to be slightly different. So it's about finding a process and a framework that works for you. I love it really cuts the heart of who your clients are and what their needs are.
Danielle Lewis (02:05):
I love it. I just got off a call this morning with somebody who, and we were having this exact same conversation that it's like you see all this stuff on Instagram that's just post this and all of the things will happen. And I'm like, no, that's not how marketing works. So I do love that you are like, no, it's not all a one size fits all. It is all about having the customer at heart. So talk to me about the StoryBrand process because I've not actually heard of it before. How does that all work?
Caron Stace-Railly (02:35):
Okay, so I'll tell you a little story about the founder is probably the best way for me to explain. So it was founded by a guy called Donald Miller, and he was actually quite a successful writer in America. So he wrote stories. He actually was a script writer in Hollywood, so he was part of one of those teams helped edit films and everything, and he decided he wanted to sell his knowledge and he thought, I can teach people to be writer. So he set up these workshops and he tried to market it and nobody came. And he was like, wait a minute, I've won awards for writing. I've this, my credentials, it's all about how great I am. And he just kind of pondered it for a bit. And he thought, wait a moment, what if marketing was similar to writing a story? So often when people hear StoryBrand, they probably think, okay, this is going to be a story about my brand or a story about my business and when it was founded and all of that. But actually it's the opposite to that. It's not about you, it's about the customer. So back to Donald, he looked at the hero's journey and I don't know, have you ever heard of the Hero's Journey at all?
Danielle Lewis (03:45):
Yeah, probably in context to movies I think.
Caron Stace-Railly (03:48):
Exactly, exactly. So it's like if you google it and you can see the picture of it, it's like a little wheel and you can actually fit it to lots of famous stories, like you look at a Matrix and Harry Potter and Back to the Future is a really great one, and that they actually all fit into a certain, there's about 12 steps to it that the hero goes through. And often the hero might be not a hero to begin with, and he gets called to do something and he's like, nah, I dunno if I want to do this. And then he goes into it and he goes on this ordeal and it's difficult and it's hard. He comes out and he comes out and is transformed into a hero. So that's essentially in a nutshell, the hero's journey. So Donald was thinking, okay, how can I apply marketing to the hero's journey?
(04:35):
And he looked at it and he went, I'm going about this all the wrong way. I'm positioning myself as the expert, as the hero, but I'm not the hero, I'm the guide. So there's always a bit like if you think about Star Wars, for example, Yoda was the classic guide. He's the guide, he's the thing. And as a business owner, you need to position yourself as the guide, not the hero. So it's not about your credentials, it's not about your qualifications, it's not about what you did and how you did it. What it is is that you show be a good guide, and being a good guide means having empathy for that customer, understanding their problem and showing them the path to how they can go through into this extraordinary world, which may be your online product, your course or your coaching program, and how you can transform them and make them into a hero.
(05:29):
So it was just that little reframe of the hero's journey that him realizing that, okay, the mistake that people do in marketing is positioning themselves as the hero. Forget about that. Your website is the, what do they call it? The call to adventure in the hero's journey. That's your website or your social media is the call to adventure. You're pulling them in and you're telling them how you can guide them through their own journey and you're not going to do it for them. You're going to be the guy, you're going to be Yoda. So that in a nutshell,
Danielle Lewis (06:02):
This is so cool and it actually makes me excited about websites. I mean the call to adventure, I'm like, that is just so much fun. I think sometimes we think about our marketing as a bit of a mystery and a bit of a what tactics, what copy and what this and that. And it's just sort of all a bit too hard. And I think sometimes we think, oh, we'll get to that in another day. But I think you've kind of positioned us as super exciting and something that you'd want to dive into, you mentioned at the start around creating funnels and having that be quite an integral part of the online journey and online sales. That's another thing I'd love for you to explain what that is because I know the word funnel gets thrown around so much and I don't think people understand how powerful they are
Caron Stace-Railly (06:57):
Completely. And actually I kind of hate the word funnel for that reason. I think it sounds a bit like I think replace funnel with relationship straight away, it makes more sense because you might find, particularly in the online core space, if you are going to run say an ad to your course, to your sales page, it's probably actually not going to do that well, unfortunately, because you don't have a relationship with that person. So it's all about how you are developing a relationship before you make the sale. And that's the most important thing, particularly online, let's face it, A lot of people have been burnt by buying online courses and going down that whole kind of thing that really during covid, it was peaking and everyone was like, and buying up large and doing this and that. Lots of people didn't get the results and they didn't deliver. So it's about building a relationship. So replace funnel with relationship, how can you build a relationship? So the standard ways of probably seeing people do things like challenges or webinars or even just email lists, these are ways that you can build relationships, social media, that's another way that you can build relationships. So yeah, it's just about building relationship and sometimes it just means you getting yourself out there, getting out on podcasts, getting out, speaking, doing these things to build relationships with your potential audience.
Danielle Lewis (08:19):
I love that so much because I think just the word funnel is a bit confusing and a bit, perhaps insensitive is probably the wrong word, but I think sales is the same thing. A lot of people have a bit of a bad taste in their mouth when it comes to sales, and I think that as business owners, even though we know we've got to make money to stay in business, the idea of sales can often feel a bit gross completely. So I love that you position it as relationships
Caron Stace-Railly (08:50):
And I think sales has changed a lot as well. I have this really clear memory, I think it was my first boyfriend and he was a salesperson and he would listen to these tapes about tactics and closing and all of that, and I'm like, forget that, honestly, forget that. Just build relationships with people. Just chat with people. Just get out there. You may not be making big bucks straight away, but it's all within time. And that was the other thing I think I learned by starting my own business was that okay, it takes time. It takes time to build up those relationships so the money comes once you've built those relationships. So yeah, forget, get quick, fast and forget sales tactics. I think if you want to do well, I totally
Danielle Lewis (09:33):
Agree. And also it's just nicer for you as a human who has to do the selling if you just focus on having great conversations and building those relationships. I totally agree. The money comes.
Caron Stace-Railly (09:47):
Definitely, definitely.
Danielle Lewis (09:49):
I love it. So how did you actually get into this?
Caron Stace-Railly (09:52):
Oh my gosh, it's a really long story, but I'll try and make it as brief as possible. So probably about five years ago. Love it. I was like a preteen and I got my first ever computer and I sat there and I went, oh, I like drawing pictures and paint. And I was like, yeah, I wonder if this is a job. So fast forward probably 10 years later, and I had a bachelor in graphic design and I grew up in New Zealand as the internet was just becoming a thing and I was like, I want to do this internet thing. So did a diploma in internet stuff, got my first web design job and last in New Zealand until early two thousands and then decided I'll do the OE thing and go to London. Yeah, London was great and I learned a lot there because as a city you really special, there's so many people, so you really specialize.
(10:51):
You learn what you're good at, and there was kind of a new emerging career called UX or user experience, and I absolutely loved it. So user experience in a nutshell is making sure that digital products sold well. I mean converted well, but the heart of that was that it wasn't frustrating people and there was a real process to that that I loved that was, say if I was helping someone design an app, it was all apps back then and we would prototype it and then we'd get people in and we'd test it and we'd refine it and we weren't just testing where the buttons were and everything. We're testing the copy because the copy we're testing the images because all of that conveys a message right to people, and if people don't understand what they're buying, they're not going to buy anyway. So 13 years later, after living in London and having this great experience, I move back to this side of world live in Australia, start to have children, and I made this realization, I don't want to live in a city anymore.
(12:01):
After living in the heart of London and sirens and seeing a lot of stuff, I was like, yep, I'm over the city life. I want to live suburbia or in more closer to a beach, let's put it that way. I'm north of Brisbane, sort of towards Sunshine Coast, and I started finding work in Brisbane and hopping on a train every day and then kids come along and that just becomes impossible. It really does. It just becomes this dropping them off to daycare at six 30, pick them up from daycare at six 30 at night. It's just no fun. So I really looked and wanted to see, there was a lot of soul searching really at that point in time. What's my passion? What can I really do? I actually took a part-time job in marketing, and then I really noticed the synergies with marketing and user experience.
(12:49):
They really are. I mean, neither marketing or user experience will agree, but I believe they're really the same thing. And that's what I was saying about marketing earlier is that it's about, there is a bit of level of testing. There's a lot of what works for this company doesn't work for that. And it's so funny in the industries they kind of have got different ethos because user experience is all about that, whereas there's a lot of people in the marketing world say, this is the way it is and this is the way it goes. Yes, there's some degree of truth in that, but you've still got to test it out and you've still got to see whether it's the truth. So when I worked as a part-time marketing person, I learned about StoryBrand, read through the book, started applying it to some of our clients and oh my god, we're getting amazing results and I'm just like, I love this.
(13:36):
So yeah, I started came a story certified StoryBrand guides there and yeah, haven't looked back. Absolutely love it and I'd love helping other women like myself. I think it's a real struggle. I mean not just for women, I think for everyone today, as soon as you have children, it just, life becomes a little bit of a pressure cooker. There's always housework that needs to be done. There's always work that needs to be done in your business or in your job. There's always school sports events or medical emergencies, even if you are not a solo parent, even if you're married, it's really, really hard. So for me, it became a real passion to help people have successful businesses, and that's why the online course area really, really interests me because I've seen people making great money with very little effort. I mean, there's a lot of effort upfront, don't get me wrong. There's a lot of work producing the course and getting those people into it, but then that can start to pay off year on year that work that they did upfront and that is so appealing as a parent to just be able to go on holiday and still have some money come in, be self-employed and still have that money come in. So yeah, that's where my passion really sparked. It's like a combination of so many different factors that have brought me to this point. Yeah,
Danielle Lewis (15:05):
I just love that it is really the truth that you don't, I think wake up one day and think I've got the perfect business idea. It is this journey that we go on as humans through different careers, different ideas, meeting different people, learning about new things like the StoryBrand process, and it's kind of then just happens a little bit. I just feel like it's so awesome and it just always blows my mind that people get to where they are from that experience. It is never, I know a lot of people hold themselves back because they just go, I'm just waiting for the right idea, and I'm like, no, it's the culmination of all of the little steps and it changes. I did another podcast recording this morning and we were talking about over six years she's had essentially three different brands and it's like you'd never get to the end one first, you have to go through that process of learning about yourself, upskilling, all of those things. So I just love that journey of actually getting here and finding your passion. It's so cool.
Caron Stace-Railly (16:15):
Completely. Do you know what that journey is called? The heroes
Danielle Lewis (16:18):
Journey? Is it
Caron Stace-Railly (16:19):
Like the hero's journey? Oh my God. But I think we're constantly going around and around and around in it, and hence why It's like really we will be constantly transforming. There's no beginning and the end as such, but we are constantly transforming as people. We're constantly growing and we are constantly, and our ideas come to you at the right time. So as long as you're moving forward, you're doing the right thing.
Danielle Lewis (16:45):
Oh my God, it's so funny. You've just hit a nerve. I always record these podcasts and it's always what I need to hear in the moment, and I'm going through a bit of a business transition at the moment and that you just saying that around evolving and the next thing and the hero's journey and the constantly learning and I was like, oh my God, everything's okay. I'm doing what I should be doing. Yeah, definitely.
Caron Stace-Railly (17:10):
Definitely. And if you're not doing the right thing, I think you'll constantly know that you're not doing the right thing. You'll constantly have these moments going, yeah, I'm meant for something else. I'm meant for something else. But that's part of the journey as well, right? That's part of it.
Danielle Lewis (17:24):
Yeah, exactly. I think sometimes we think that decisions will be easy and that we'll know the next right step to take, and sometimes we fall over a little bit and that's okay, we just get up and try something else.
Caron Stace-Railly (17:40):
Well, in the user experience, world failures were the best learning ever, especially if we fail early on it about failing fast. That's why we'd prototype. That's why we'd built things cheaply because we are trying to test and find out whether that's going to work or if it's not going to work. What you don't want to do is put all your eggs in one basket and really, I mean sometimes we have to, but I think there is a certain points. If it's going to cost you your life savings and it's going to cost you this, then maybe is there another way we can test it out first and all about testing, life's about testing, marketing's about testing.
Danielle Lewis (18:21):
It's so true. And it's so funny because as a sales and marketing person, I know that I intrinsically, but for some reason when it comes to business ownership, I'm like, I should know all the right answers and do all the right things. But I think if we could apply that same model of failure testing, learning, constantly evolving and cutting ourselves a little slack, I think that would be a nice thing we could do for ourselves as
Caron Stace-Railly (18:49):
Business owners. Oh, completely. I'm lucky my daughters go to such a great school because they really instilled that whole, and I think, God, I wish I'd have learned that even as a little kid, it's school that we embrace failure, we embrace failure, we learned from failure. Failure is the biggest teacher in the whole world. It really is.
Danielle Lewis (19:07):
Yeah, I love that. I remember my schooling experience was so stressful because I didn't want to do any of the, I studied fashion design, which is completely different to what I do now, but I remember going through that sort of school and uni years thinking, I already know what I want to do. Why do I have to go through this? And it was very much a success or fail. You just do the tests and all of your things. There wasn't really this idea of trying things out or failing or experimenting. It was just such a frustrating experience. So I'm so glad to hear that perhaps schools are catching up to this idea now.
Caron Stace-Railly (19:47):
Yeah, definitely. Oh, that's crazy. Even that you felt that was the fashion designer.
Danielle Lewis (19:52):
Yeah, even when I was studying fashion at uni, I, so I felt so stifled by the program and curriculum. I was like, I just want to do it.
Caron Stace-Railly (20:03):
I'm saying because creative as well, surely. I mean, I suppose, yeah, I think maybe design thinking, the whole concept of design thinking and that's essentially testing and testing things out and trying things out maybe. That's quite new really, isn't it? I feel
Danielle Lewis (20:21):
Like it is new. So I studied showing my age, but it's over a decade ago that I went to uni and yeah, it was was also a very new course. So I was one of the second year that they had a bachelor of fine arts design, so it was a fashion degree, and so they kind of had to fill the credits with some random subjects and bits and pieces. So I think they were kind of figuring it out as well. But it was really, I felt like I didn't belong in there. I felt like there was a specific way to be doing things and it was very, that's not cool. It was really bizarre. It was so bizarre.
Caron Stace-Railly (21:02):
I kind thing for design as well, there's nothing more creative and where you should be experimenting. That's insane. Exactly.
Danielle Lewis (21:09):
I know. And so I think you might be right, I think this is, especially in the last decade, we've started to embrace failure, embrace design thinking, embrace UX methodologies in other areas, which I think is so cool, right?
Caron Stace-Railly (21:26):
Yeah, definitely. I mean, it really opened my mind. I didn't experience any sort of user experience in New Zealand when I left, and it really blew my mind moving to London and just seeing how they had a totally different way of working from a New Zealand, and I know that New Zealand would've caught up now, but yeah, there was such a big change back then. There was such a big change. So this is sort of mid two thousands, early two thousands, there was a real shift over in the uk, and I think maybe it's taken a while to sort of trickle down into this side of the world understanding that the way to operate just little things
Danielle Lewis (22:05):
Like community 20 years ago, holy crap, am I that old? And when you said early, oh shit, God. Yeah, I know exactly
Caron Stace-Railly (22:16):
Where does, oh my God, we're going to be 2025 soon, so oh my God, I went
Danielle Lewis (22:25):
To uni 20 years ago.
Caron Stace-Railly (22:27):
Oh no, you must be similar age to me. Yeah, I moved to London in 2024. My gosh, I just finished uni then. My gosh.
Danielle Lewis (22:37):
Yeah. Oh my God, that's crazy. I always just assume I'm young. I just feel like, I don't know, I am perpetually like 20. It's just all of a sudden I'm like, oh, that thing happened double the time ago that I thought it happened, or that thing happened triple the time ago that I thought it happened.
Caron Stace-Railly (22:55):
Do you think, I always used to think there was going to be a point where I was a grownup. I am like, oh, when I'm a grownup and when I'm a grownup, and then I had kids and I remember having a few moments when I'm clipping the baby into the car seat thinking this feels really grown up, or I've baby in and I'm like, oh, now I'm like, oh gosh, I've really got to think about my retirement now. Where did life go?
Danielle Lewis (23:19):
Oh my God, I know. I'm just going through this phase at the moment where, so there's a few older people in my life. My parents are starting to get a little bit older and everyone's aunties and uncles are starting to get a little bit older, and I've really gone through this phase of I've really got to start looking after myself. I really want to be able bodied and energetic later in life. And I'm like, well, the challenge you have is you're already bloody old, so you need start now so that you're building on that foundation. But when does that happen that we grow up and now we're going, oh my God, I need to exercise so that when I'm 70 I'm mobile.
Caron Stace-Railly (23:57):
Oh yeah, big time. I think it's really actually it can I tell you, it's really important for women as well. I've done a lot of studies. Sorry, completely off the subject. I
Danielle Lewis (24:04):
Love it. I love it. This
Caron Stace-Railly (24:05):
Is great. There's a lot of studies around women and when we get perimenopause and menopause, actually our muscles start to muscle tone just really naturally goes away. So I actually try and drop the kids off and do, even if it's 15 minutes of weights, go to the gym. I mean, the gym must think, oh, here she is again for 15 minutes, but hey, that's better than nothing rightly. And try and fit that in because if that 15 minutes every day accounts for something, and I do think you're so right, it's so important because before you know it will be too late and you're just like, oh, why didn't I look after myself? I didn't realize as long as I was.
Danielle Lewis (24:44):
No, it's so good. Well, I think there's lessons in it for business owners as well. We're all women here and we are all on the aging process. But I do love what you said about the 15 minutes because I think that one thing that holds people back is I've got to run for 10 Ks, otherwise it doesn't count. But I am actually on your team. I'm a big believer in small efforts often because if you have sometimes that large thing in your mind, you don't do anything. So I'm like if doing something is always better than doing nothing, and I mean whether that's exercise, whether that's posting on your social media every day, whatever, I do love the chunk it down and make it so small that it's a no-brainer to do otherwise. Sometimes it's the big goal or the big, I've got to put in this much effort and you kind of go, eh, it's too hard. I don't have the energy for that.
Caron Stace-Railly (25:39):
And before you know it, you haven't done it for months because you're like, it's such a big thing. And that's an interesting thing when I do just go, okay, I'm going to the gym for 15 minutes, let's say 50% of the time. I'm like, actually, I've got a bit more time before my first meeting or something, and actually I'm on a bit of a role and I'll do it a little bit more. So that happens. You have those days. You have those days where you go in and you're just like, I hate every minute of this. Not today, but yeah, that's good. It's just about showing up and just Yeah, exactly. It totally applies to social media, doesn't it? Something that I need to do a bit more of.
Danielle Lewis (26:15):
But I mean it's everything, right? We could always be doing more of everything. So that's why I love that and to your point, it's momentum when you have that, well, I'm just doing this five minute task and then you do it and oh yeah, I do have a bit more time, or I do, you have a bit more energy, I'll just do a little bit more. But it is that if it seems too big, we'll put it off. But if it's this tiny little thing, often it grows into a bigger thing because we're like the barrier to entry is a lot lower.
Caron Stace-Railly (26:46):
Exactly. It stops procrastination as well. Even if you are about to start a business, for example, there were many times where I was contracting, I'm like, I want to start a business, but I would just get stuck and I was just like, even you could just set up a blog and write about something. I mean, even if that's not your business or you dunno what your business is, you're stepping towards it, you're doing something, you're moving. And it's back to what we were saying before, it's about having that momentum and you'll just find your way, the path will appear.
Danielle Lewis (27:17):
I love that. I can't even remember what I call it. So sometimes if I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed, I dunno what to do, or I've only got short blocks of time free in the day. I have this hit list where it's like tasks that do help me achieve my goals, but they're only five minute tasks. So maybe it's following up a proposal or yes, posting on social media or outreaching to a dream client, whatever it is. I've just got this hit list of things that if you do this any day, it will always be valuable to your business. And I find that really helps me because if I'm going, oh my God, I don't want to start that thing that I've got to start, it's too hard. Or Oh, I've only got 30 minutes and I go to that list, I'm like, cool, I'll just do that random thing. So I've kind of still been productive, but it hasn't been overwhelming and it hasn't taken a lot of time.
Caron Stace-Railly (28:10):
I love that. I really do. I love that idea of having just a hit list of stuff or having that backlog and being that organized. Yeah, fantastic.
Danielle Lewis (28:20):
So good. I love it. Well, you are amazing. Thank you so much for sharing your journey and your wisdom with the smart community. I always love to wrap up these podcasts with one last piece of advice. So reflecting on your time in business, what would be one piece of advice that you would give to another woman on her business journey?
Caron Stace-Railly (28:42):
Don't be afraid to ask for help would be my number one piece of advice. I think quite often we get stuck on this. I have to do it all myself or I have to pay someone else to do it all, but there's definitely middle grounds within that as well. You can just get a little piece of advice that can help you sit on the way you can find people who will do a little bit for you, for your budget, and then get that piece of advice. Don't say struggling thinking, I can't afford help, I can't afford help. I must do it all myself. And getting kind of lost and confused. So yeah, it's always like a csaw. I understand maybe you have more time than money, but it's worthwhile getting that advice and seeing how somebody else can help you out and then setting you on the way. So I'm all about, yeah, keeping it balanced. I hate to hear of people who've literally sat on say, online courses for years and years and years and they haven't been selling, and I'm like, oh my God, your course is amazing. It should be out there. You should be getting help. And I understand if you can't afford someone to completely copyright and build you everything, but that little piece of advice, even if it's just read the StoryBrand book, there's a great piece of advice that could really set you on the right path. Yeah,
Danielle Lewis (29:56):
I love it. Because isn't it interesting that the conversations come full circle in that just do something small, you don't have to go all or nothing. You can ask for help and you can get a little bit done here and a little bit done there and just always be moving forward, I think
Caron Stace-Railly (30:13):
Completely. Oh, it's been such a pleasure speaking to you. You're so fantastic.
Danielle Lewis (30:17):
You too. And I've written down on my post-It note. I'm going to read the StoryBrand book now.
Caron Stace-Railly (30:22):
Yeah, let me know how it goes and what you think of it. It is actually, I think the most recommended marketing book ever. The reviews on Amazon are just off the charts. So yeah, I've recommended every business owner read it.
Danielle Lewis (30:38):
Incredible. Well, thank you so much again for joining us on the show, and I can't wait to speak to you again in the future.
Caron Stace-Railly (30:46):
Thank you for having me. Bye.
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